« ÎnapoiContinuați »
that way. Exactly what the shape of the future is going to be, I don't know. But we said when we met together in a hearing in De cember that it was the sense of hopelessness, of despair, and of no end in sight to the occupation which was probably the main trigger, that mindset triggered by the fact that they felt neglected and abandoned by the Arab summit of November.
Mr. HAMILTON. Is it your sense that the Israelis are still groping for a formula of control here; that they don't know quite what to do and they've not yet found a formula for dealing with the situation?
Ambassador MURPHY. Their Defense Minister is responsible for deploying the troops. He can do much more than he has done, but that is not the solution, or exactly how he put it. There has to be a political solution, so they're groping for that, yes. Mr. HAMILTON. Are they also groping for ways of crowd control?
? You've had the sniper fire, you've had the rubber bullets, you've had the beatings, you've had the deportations. They seem to be trying a lot of different things
Ambassador MURPHY. Yes, in the sense of the various technical devices they can use, they're groping.
Mr. HAMILTON. Have we offered any advice to the Israelis as to how they can control the crowd?
Ambassador MURPHY. We've talked about it. But you need only point to the examples of other countries from Korea across Europe and Latin America, there are better ways to control crowds than have been used in the territories. But it's a little awkward to be in that position as a foreign government coaching. They don't need really advice on that side.
NATURE OF THE PALESTINIAN UPRISING
Mr. HAMILTON. What do we really know about this generation that's behind the disturbances? What are their motivations? What are their goals? What do they want? What is their relationship to the older Palestinians? Can you analyze that a little bit for me?
Ambassador MURPHY. The older generation opposed, the older generation had their houses blown up for acts of dissidence. They got tossed into jail or deported. This didn't start just last December. But this has been more widespread and as I say, I think driven by simply the passage of time in the sense that no solution was out there so they had to take their destiny, their future in their own hands.
Mr. HAMILTON. Does the older generation support what the younger generation is now doing?
Ambassador MURPHY. They seem to be both proud of it and nervous about the consequences.
Mr. HAMILTON. Has the older generation lost its control over the younger generation there?
Ambassador MURPHY. To a degree, I'd say so. But the factor of pride is real. They feel the kids are showing the way.
Mr. HAMILTON. Are we now seeing a widespread movement of non-cooperation by the Palestinians with Israeli authorities?
Ambassador MURPHY. You are seeing apprehension on the part of those that have been in the civil service, in the police.
Mr. HAMILTON. Do you expect that to expand?
Ambassador MURPHY. I think that's a possibility. But here again, I don't want to give a prediction.
Mr. HAMILTON. This younger generation, to whom do they owe their allegiance?
Ambassador MURPHY. That's unclear.
Ambassador MURPHY. Their heroes are their neighbors who threw a rock and got shot.
Mr. HAMILTON. Do they look to the Abu Nidal group or do they look to the Islamic fundamentalists? Do they look to Arafat?
Ambassador MURPHY. They look in the most general sense to the PLO, in the sense of identity. They can be very critical of the individual leaders.
Mr. HAMILTON. Can you identify any leaders among them?
Ambassador MURPHY. My understanding is not yet. But this, and probably the wisest comment was that the leadership that is needed is not that demanding or highly trained.
Mr. HAMILTON. What are their political goals?
Ambassador MURPHY. Basically to get rid of the occupation and run their own lives.
Mr. HAMILTON. If you're going to sum up their political goals it's basically an anti-occupation goal, is that right?
Ambassador MURPHY. Yes, but I would be naive to suggest there aren't individuals who wouldn't want to go the whole way and get all of Palestine back. There are individuals who would like to go into a close association with Jordan. It's a very mixed bag. But basically it's frustration at the occupation.
Mr. HAMILTON. Are there differences between the goals of the younger generation and the older generation?
Ambassador MURPHY. I think as you grow older and get a stake, have the responsibility of feeding a family and earning money to make your way, maybe you do get a little more conservative. I think as far as the Israeli-Arab population is concerned, it's been a strong test of their allegiance to Israel and one which they've met.
U.S. ASSESSMENT OF ISRAELI SUPPRESSION MEASURES
Mr. HAMILTON. We've seen all of these horrible incidents on television. We've heard about demonstrators being buried alive by bulldozers. We've seen the beatings of young people. We've seen the tear gas being fired and the bullets being fired, and the demonstrators beaten and handcuffed and all. How do you read these things? Are they aberrations? Are they unusual events that the cameras just happen to pick up? Or are they happening all over the place? You observed earlier that the cameras don't tell the whole truth. I just want to know how you assess those horrible things we've seen and read about.
Ambassador MURPHY. It's one bunch, in many cases, of teenagers against another. Some recruits in the Israeli army are furious that their presence and their authority is being disputed, and they sense a threat to their future. Mr. HAMILTON. Are they broadly practiced? Ambassador MURPHY. A mirror image on the Palestinian side.
Mr. HAMILTON. Are these things we've seen broadly practiced, or are they really very unusual events?
Ambassador MURPHY. My strong feeling about Israel and its relationship with the media and the feistiness of Israel's own media, is that there is no story left untold there, so I think you've got, what troubles there have been reported and have been, if not filmed, they've been covered. So it's as wide ranging as we read in the media. There is no cover up.
Mr. HAMILTON. Are they common, these incidents, or are they unusual?
Ambassador MURPHY. I can't generalize on that. The individual soldiers have gotten out beyond the orders, have gone beyond the orders they've been given by their commanders. In the early days, about the second month, the Defense Minister said we won't use lethal force, but we're going to use brute force.
Mr. HAMILTON. Are we now comfortable with the orders of the Defense Minister to the troops?
Ambassador MURPHY. No we're not. Of course not. We have made our position very clear on that.
Mr. HAMILTON. We think their treatment is too harsh in general, is that correct?
Ambassador MURPHY. Yes. It doesn't solve the problem, it just deepens it.
ROLE OF GOLAN HEIGHTS IN THE PEACE PROCESS
Mr. HAMILTON. Mr. Secretary you've had a long afternoon here. I'm running out of time, if you're not.
Do you see any negotiations with respect to the Golan Heights in this peace process?
Ambassador MURPHY. We've asked the Israeli leadership before we went to Damascus, are you prepared to discuss this with Syria and they said yes.
Mr. HAMILTON. So that would be a possibility in the transition period, or for final status?
Ambassador MURPHY. I'm glad to make the point which is that, and this was one thing very confusing in Syria, confusing for the Syrians. The concept of transition period and final status was de vised for the negotiations as they affect West Bank and Gaza which we think, as I mentioned, to be the most, consider the most complex of the negotiations. It may be that Israel and Syria would prefer to go at it differently and go directly to final status as one example. But the arrangement was designed for West Bank and Gaza. Let the others devise the procedures and the agenda that they feel comfortable with.
INSERTS FOR THE RECORD
Mr. HAMILTON. Without objection, we'll put into the record a letter and a report from Amnesty International dated March 1988, Human Rights Violations in Israel and the Occupied Territories, and a report on the economy of Israel by the Agency for International Development dated January 15, 1988.1
* See appendixes 1, 2 and 3.