Commissioner CARUSI. I think that would be a natural human impulse. A person homeless abroad, and particularly if he has friends or relatives here, would under those circumstances consider America a very nice place in which to live.

Mr. FISHER. It has been a thought of mind that during the postwar period, when we have so many problems to meet here such as unemployment, and things like that, wouldn't it seem that it might be an act of wisdom for the Congress to reduce the quotas, at least temporarily, until the picture is cleared and the permanent postwar policy of immigration can better be agreed upon?

Commissioner CARUSI. My view is until the picture is cleared away we should do nothing and let the present law operate. You are speaking of reducing the quotas, and I presume you would prefer reducing the quotas, and assuming that to be your view I say that the figure of 150,000 is not large, and so my suggestion would be to leave it as it is until the situation is cleared and we can better determine whether to go up or down. Until you can determine that I think we better leave it where it is, and eventually you may determine it should go up or down or stay just as it is.

Mr. FISHER. You think during the transition period it would not be wise to reduce it?

Commissioner CARUSI. I think it should not be changed; yes, sir. Chairman DICKSTEIN. Well now, in this connection, Mr. Commissioner, Great Britain and Northern Ireland have a quota of 65,000 from which they have used only 1.5 to 2 percent. Why give England and Northern Ireland 65,000 which they do not use and give Germany 27,000, which is a total of 92,000 out of the 150,000, and deprive the little countries who are allies of ours of a few hundreds in view of the fact that their people have been pioneering in this country for a century.

Mr. FISHER. I would like to reduce all the quotas.

Chairman DICKSTEIN. I can understand the gentleman's position, but there should be equity somewhere and we cannot isolate ourselves from the rest of the world and we cannot say "We will do this for you but we will not do that for you.

In 1924, passing the law in which the quota is based on the census of 1890 was most unfair and prejudicial to the people of the smaller countries who were here and whose families were here. The Britisher never came here and if he does come it takes 22 years before he renounces allegiance to the King and it takes a Czechoslovak or a Greek just 1 day to get first papers. He wants to be part of us.

All of this must be studied, and as I said, there is no reason to let Great Britain have 65,000 a year which they do not use when the quota for every country dies on June 30 of each fiscal year.

Commissioner CARUSI. That is right; it has not accumulated. Chairman DICKSTEIN. If you will go back and check the figures you will find that in the last 10 years 900,000 eligible under the quotas have not been used. Am I not right on that?

Commissioner CARUSI. That is right; it is about that.

Chairman DICKSTEIN. It has been at least that many. I think this committee must study the problem and pass upon those questions. I think that something should be done for the smaller countries by reducing the quotas of the countries that are not using them.

Mr. ALLEN. The trouble, Mr. Chairman, is as your discussion has indicated that if you undertook to reduce one country and not another you would get into trouble and the solution is to cut out all quotas for a while and I would like to see that done for a while. Cut all out until we are on our feet.

Chairman DICKSTEIN. We are on our feet.

Commissioner CARUSI. It is a big order and we had better go slowly and have open minds on the whole thing. That is my thought.

Mr. ELLIS. Mr. Commissioner, I have a few questions I would like to ask.

The quotas are not transferable from one country to another either directly or indirectly? Is that true?

Commissioner CARUSI. They are not transferable.

Mr. ELLIS. I would like to make further inquiry of the situation at Oswego since you stated a moment ago a child born there was a citizen of the United States. Is that true?

Commissioner CARUSI. I do not know whether it has been decided officially, but that is my unofficial view.

Mr. ELLIS. A child born anywhere in the United States is a citizen hereafter?

Commissioner CARUSI. Born in the United States, subject to the jurisdiction thereof. Some people worry about that last provision, but most of us feel they are citizens of the United States.

Mr. ELLIS. I got that impression, that the Oswego camp was on the same status as Ellis Island?

Commissioner CARUSI. In this sense that they are not in this country under immigration laws; they are in this country and are sort of territorially suspended. In Ellis Island we consider a person has not got in this country; that is as far as they have got. I use that example. Mr. ELLIS. Would a child born on Ellis Island be an American citizen?

Commissioner CARUSI. I think it would; yes.

Mr. KEARNEY. Mr. Commissioner, what is the definition of a "free port" that was mentioned a few minutes ago?

Commissioner CARUSI. Well, I did not say that it is; I think the chairman used that expression.

Mr. KEARNEY. As I understand the chairman declared Oswego was a free port.

Commissioner CARUSI. I do not think he declared it a free port. I think that was an analogy the chairman drew.

Mr. KEARNEY. I have read in the newspapers where they spoke about Oswego, and the headlines said that Oswego was a free port. Commissioner CARUSI. I did not know it was given that official designation. The President did not call it that; the papers may have called it that.

Chairman DICKSTEIN. That may be true.

Mr. KEARNEY. Let us assume for argument sake that Oswego is a free port for the purpose of establishing this camp?

Commissioner CARUSI. Yes, sir.

Mr. KEARNEY. Now under those conditions where a child was born of parents in that free port he does not become a citizen of the United States?

Commissioner CARUSI. If it were actually a free port and therefore not under the jurisdiction of the United States, I believe he would not be.

Mr. ALLEN. But, Mr. Commissioner, does not our law state specifically and unequivocably that all those born in the United States are citizens?

Commissioner CARUSI. Oh, yes.

Mr. DOLLIVER. The Constitution provides for that.

Commissioner CARUSI. Yes; and subject to the jurisdictoin thereof. Mr. ALLEN. If a child is born in America that child could claim American citizenship; isn't that right?

Commissioner CARUSI. That is right.

Mr. KEARNEY. Oswego is in America?

Chairman DICKSTEIN. Every child born in America has American citizenship.

Mr. FISHER. Mr. Commissioner, is it your thought that when the war is over the refugees at Oswego will be returned to the places from which they came?

Commissioner CARUSI. I must confess that pretty much all that I have said about the Oswego camp I have learned from others and the papers. I think when they are moved back it will be through some of the military authorities that have an interest in their being here; I know little about it officially, as it is not an immigration problem.

Chairman DICKSTEIN. We are not holding you to that.

Mr. FISHER. But apparently it is clearly our right to send them back?

Commissioner CARUSI. That is something for the military authorities to determine.

Chairman DICKSTEIN. Thank you, Commissioner, you have given us a pretty good picture of the situation.

Commissioner CARUSI. There are two things I want to suggest before I conclude.

Chairman DICKSTEIN. Yes.

Commissioner CARUSI. One of them is this: In consideration of citizenship you may wish to give thought to the fixing of more precise standards of persons seeking citizenship. As you know now they have to show adherence to the principles of the Constitution, and they have to show a favorable attitude toward the peace and good order of the United States. Those are pretty general terms and you may want to think whether or not you want to be more specific and find out. Some judges say you must know all about the Constitution; some say you must show you are just a law-abiding person. We do not get uniformity. If you are more specific, say you believe in the freedom of speech, freedom of the press, government by the chosen representatives of the people, and so on, you have there things that are really more specific and thereby you might get more uniformity.

Chairman DICKSTEIN. I think that is a very good suggestion. Commissioner CARUSI. The other point is on immigration-when you consider quotas, their abolition, decrease or increase, you may wish to give thought as to whether or not there should be some sort of selective immigration either under quota or outside of quota, predicated on a system of checking and admitting the man on the basis,

let us say, of his occupation, or his value to this country, or something like that.

Mr. GoSSETT. Along that line, do we have any regulation against persons who at any time bore arms against this country subsequent to becoming citizens?

Commissioner CARUSI. I am aware of none; no, we have men who are now American citizens who fought against us in the last war. Mr. GOSSETT. I know that, and we are having trouble with some of them now.

Commissioner CARUSI. There is no law against it. It is something that the judge probably does take into account when he naturalizes them, but which you may wish to consider.

Mr. ALLEN. Wouldn't it be well to specify before a man is granted a visa abroad to come here that the consul or other official make sure that he never belonged to the Nazi Party or any other such party?

Commissioner CARUSI. He can do that now. That would be up to the State Department. They could determine the rigidity of the examination before they grant the visa.

Mr. REES. That is with respect to suggestions with regard to uniformity of naturalization

Commissioner CARUSI (interposing). Yes?

Mr. REES. It might be well for us to have you furnish us with rather definite suggestions in regard to that matter when we consider it more in detail. I think that is rather important?

Commissioner CARUSI. Yes.

Mr. REES. And Commissioner, you have a lot to do with the uniformity of the naturalization laws?

Commissioner CARUSI. Yes; of course, today we are going over the subject briefly and after you start subcommittees as each subcommittee or group takes up particular subjects we would be glad to come in with any suggestions we can on all phases of the problem, and factual information, and as you suggest, if we can be more specific in the kind of thinking which will go into these uniform standards, we would be glad to supply such assistance.

Chairman DICKSTEIN. Are there any other questions?

We appreciate your testimony.

Commissioner ČARUSI. Thank you.

Chairman DICKSTEIN. After the committee has appointed a subcommittee to go into this question of the alien enemy, we will need your cooperation to go into these alien camps and see just what the situation is.

Commissioner CARUSI. Yes; you may consider you are invited

now.

Chairman DICKSTEIN. Thank you very much; we appreciate your testimony.

We will now hear from Mr. Wechsler, Attorney General in charge of the War Division of the Department of Justice.

STATEMENT OF HERBERT WECHSLER, ASSISTANT ATTORNEY GENERAL IN CHARGE OF THE WAR DIVISION OF THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE

Mr. WECHSLER. Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, I am Assistant Attorney General in charge of the War Division of the

Department of Justice. I have a very limited responsibility in the field that concerns your committee, and that is the responsibility for alien enemy detention.

The determinations in alien enemy cases have been made by the Attorney General rather than by the Immigration Service under authority delegated by the President. It was principally a security operation. The investigations were conducted by the FBI rather than the Immigration Service and the whole theory of alien enemy detection and alien enemy regulation has been based upon security considerations.

I would like to say for myself and for those who assist in discharging my responsibility, that we share the pleasure, expressed by Mr. Carusi, that the committee is going to examine these problems. If within our functions we can be of any assistance in providing information or suggestions, we shall be glad to cooperate in any way we

can.

Chairman DICKSTEIN. You are dealing now with the alien enemies? Mr. WECHSLER. As pointed out by the Commissioner; that is right, sir. Chairman DICKSTEIN. And you are one of the directors in charge of one of them?

Mr. WECHSLER. I am one of the assistant attorneys general and this work falls in my division.

Chairman DICKSTEIN. And that is under the jurisdiction of the Attorney General?

Mr. WECHSLER. That is right.

Chairman DICKSTEIN. Now then, do you want to make a statement or do you want to have me propound questions, or just how do you want to proceed?

Mr. WECHSLER. As you choose. There are one or two facts about it that I think might be helpful to the committee if I stated them; and I will state them very briefly.

First of all, I do not think it has been called to your attention that there are approximately 7,600 persons of alien enemy nationality who have already been repatriated in exchange for American citizens. These 7,600 persons have left this country and they were composed of 4,400 Germans, 535 Italians, and 2,600 Japanese. So that, roughly speaking, about half of the total problem has already been met by these exchanges which occurred in the course of the war. Of course, American citizens were similarly returned to the United States by the enemy powers.

Chairman DICKSTEIN. 4,400?

Mr. WECHSLER. 4,469 Germans to be precise.

Chairman DICKSTEIN. In other words they were classified as enemy aliens?

Mr. WECHSLER. Yes, sir.

Chairman DICKSTEIN. And those 4,400 Germans, 535 Italians, and 2,600 Japanese are out of this country?

Mr. WECHSLER. They are out of the country; that is right.

Chairman DICKSTEIN. And in return we got some of our own Americans back?

Mr. WECHSLER. That is right.

Chairman DICKSTEIN. And how many do we have left on hand? Mr. WECHSLER. Roughly, 7,300 are left in internment.