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Mr. STEELE. The term "collective bargaining" possibly means some things I know nothing about. But in dealing with my own employees, either in a group or a union to which they belong, if that is not collective bargaining, what is it?

Mr. WOOD. In one sense of the word it is, but not in the broader sense of the meaning of collective bargaining.

Mr. KELLER. Do you have a shop union or an outside union?

Mr. STEELE. We have no company union. We make no endeavor to have a company union. Our employees belong to the various craft unions. And I say, Mr. Chairman, I don't know which ones of them belong to the union; it makes no difference.

Mr. KELLER. But is it a union shop?

Mr. STEELE. Yes, sir; it is.

Mr. KELLER. That is what I wanted to know.

Are there any other questions you wish to ask, Mr. Wood?

Mr. WOOD. That is all just now.

Mr. ELLENBOGEN. Mr. Steele, I believe you object to competition with employers in foreign countries who do not pay similar wage scales to that which you pay.

Mr. STEELE. By virtue of the good coming in from foreign countries that pay such extremely low wages that they keep down the price of our products.

Mr. ELLENBOGEN. In other words, you think foreign employers should be on the same level so far as wage scales are concerned? Mr. STEELE. I don't know to what you refer.

Mr. ELLENBOGEN. You object to imports because they pay less in wages. Does the same objection not hold true against the South, if they pay less?

Mr. STEELE. The competition I have from the South is very limited; that is, my own personal competition. The price of the foreign goods about which I am speaking has the effect I mentioned. The only man who really has any edge on me in the South in the fine goods business, specializing in the fine goods business, specializing in dray goods, is the fellow who is getting his taxes free.

Mr. ELLENBOGEN. But you do not believe an employee in New Bedford should be dislodged from his employment by unfair competition from the South any more than from Japan?

Mr. STEELE. Or any more than in our own district, Rhode Island or Connecticut, or I don't care what State it comes from.

Mr. ELLENBOGEN. So you do not believe there should be a differential between the South and the North in wages, do you?

Mr. STEELE. Well, of course, if we were exactly the same price as the South in our fine goods business, I don't believe there would be much difference other than the matter of free taxes. Almost every mill that Dr. Murchison has spoken about as going South received an invitation to come to some other State, but most of them were from the South. If we will move, then we are offered 10 years' taxes free, or something like that.

Mr. WOOD. And free water, light, and power?

Mr. STEELE. Yes, sir.

Mr. ELLENBOGEN. You do not believe that should be the case, do you?

Mr. STEELE. I could take advantage of that if I wished, but I do not want to do so.

Mr. ELLENBOGEN. I would like to have you answer my question.. Do you believe there should be a wage differential between the North and the South?

Mr. STEELE. I am on record on that. I have said that goods selling in the same common market should pay the same price. I am on record on that.

Mr. ELLENBOGEN. Against it?

Mr. STEELE. Yes, sir.

Mr. ELLENBOGEN. I was very glad to hear you speak against the three shifts.

All mills in the Burlington chain, for instance, represent three shifts; also the Marshall Field Mill in Leaksville, N. C., and the Haw River Mill, Haw River, N. C.

The Edna Cotton Mill, Reedsville, N. C., runs two 11-hour shifts at present on Government work.

The Sanford Manufacturing Co., Sanford, N. C., also runs two 11-hour shifts. And many other mills run three 8-hour shifts.

Mr. STEELE. No, sir. They are not competitors of mine, but it is not fair competition with the people who are in competition with them. Mr. KELLER. This is outside of the bill, perhaps, but what can we do to put our 10 million idle men to work?

Mr. STEELE. Mr. Chairman, you have commissions, you have experts, you have men galore here in Washington who are trying to answer that question. And there is a saying that "fools rush in where angles fear to tread"; and I do not wish to assume the role of either. Mr. KELLER. That is a nice way to put it. But there ought to be a way out of this, ought there not?

Mr. STEELE. There will be a way out.

Mr. KELLER. Where will we find it?

Mr. STEELE. I don't know, sir. But when we consider the great depression that was caused by the world war, which came right down the line to one country after another, we must realize that it was bound to reach us. This depression was bound to come. It has cleaned a lot of us; it has cleaned myself as well as others. But now we are going through the reestablishment, we hope. The cycle will go around. It always has done so. But when and where, I don't know.

I don't know of any proposition that I could lay before you gentlemen right now that would solve the depression problem.

Mr. KELLER. Unless we can put those men back to work.

Mr. STEELE. Mr. Chairman, when you put the processing tax on us, how many men did they put out of work in the South?

Mr. KELLER. Did it put anybody out of work?

Mr. STEELE. What happened to the tenant farmers?
Mr. KELLER. That is what I want to know.

Mr. STEELE. If I am informed correctly, about 500,000 people were thrown out of employment.

Mr. KELLER. I do not find it so. But I am trying to get this over to you. I was hoping that when you men who do the big manufacturing of the country come here but are opposed to this going into

effect, that you would tell this committee what we can do to put our 10 million idle people back to work.

Mr. STEELE. That is another proposition entirely, sir.

Mr. KELLER. I realize that full well. Yet one of the principal objects of this bill is to put men back to work.

Mr. STEELE. That may be. But unless we can market our output and have an outlet for our problems we will not be able to put them to work. And please bear this in mind, that it not only involves the men whom we lay off in the textile industry but also the stevedore, the truckman, and everybody else who handles the bale of cotton all of the way down the line.

Mr. KELLER. Let me make this suggestion. I hope to have the very full proof of this statement-and I am promised it-that if we could restore or raise the income 50 percent above what it was in the prepanic days that it would enable us to use 20,000,000 bales of cotton here in the United States. And I believe that is true. And I suggest this to you for your consideration, because if we can do that it seems to me that it is the one way of solving the whole situation.

Mr. STEELE. Of course, our prosperity depends upon the prosperity of the country-at-large.

Mr. KELLER. Certainly it does. It depends not only upon one industry but upon all of them.

Mr. STEELE. This bill provides a minimum wage of $15. But it does not provide for any change in the economic situation; it does not provide for what is happening in other industries. We must bear in mind that this industry cannot pay premiums over other industries. None of my associates in the textile industry whom I know personally but hope for the time when we can have a much higher scale. I am opposed to low wages. I worked for them and I know what it means. I want to pay everything I can that is reasonable, that is in keeping with allied and other industries. And my associates are with me in that feeling.

Mr. KELLER. And if we can get to where we can raise the ability of men to purchase, they will do it. And they have always bought when they could buy.

Mr. STEELE. That is absolutely right.

Mr. KELLER. I thank you. You have been a good witness.

Mr. ELLENBOGEN. Do you have competition from Greenville, N.C.?

Mr. STEELE. There are several fine good mills down there.
Mr. ELLENBOGEN. Are they violating the standards?

Mr. STEELE. To whom do you refer?

Mr. ELLENBOGEN. To practically all of them.

Mr. STEELE. I don't know that they are.

Mr. ELLENBOGEN. They are in direct competition with you?

Mr. STEELE. What mills do you mean?

Mr. ELLENBOGEN. The Dunean Mills, for instance.

Mr. STEELE. They are entirely rayon, I believe. I may be wrong about it, but I think they are entirely rayon. I do not come across them in my market.

Mr. KELLER. I will now call Mr. Herman Cone, treasurer, Proximity Manufacturing Co., of Greensboro, N. C.

STATEMENT OF HERMAN CONE, TREASURER, PROXIMITY MANUFACTURING CO., GREENSBORO, N. C.

Mr. KELLER. Will you please state your name and your address, Mr. Cone?

Mr. CONE. My name is Herman Cone. I am Treasurer of the Proximity Manufacturing Co., Greensboro, N. C.

Mr. KELLER. Is that the town where something was mentioned as to their being in competition with Mr. Steele?

Mr. CONE. No, sir. That was Greenville, S. C.

Mr. KELLER. Mr. Ellenbogen, was it Greenville, S. C. that you were talking about a little while ago?

Mr. ELLENBOGEN. Yes; it was Greenville, S. C.

Mr. CONE. There are just two things I want to talk about. One is the statement of some of the witnesses who have appeared here. One of the witnesses named a long list of North Carolina mills in a wholesale charge of wage reductions, lengthened hours, and stretch-out. I think he was mistaken about it. I believe he had some incorrect information about some of the mills mentioned by him. He may have been mistaken about all of them; I don't know. But I do know that he was mistaken about one group, because he called the Cone Mills at Greensboro by name. And while I am not qualified to speak for any group other than my own, I do know something about our own condition.

And I will tell you gentlemen frankly that we have not deviated from the code standards. And I challenge any man to dispute that

statement.

There is just one other matter I want to mention. I think Mr. Ellenbogen mentioned something about the mill at Haw River running three shifts, and also the Burlington chain, and mills at other places. I am not qualified to speak for the Burlington, but we operate the mill at Haw River. I think the information in that respect is somewhat incorrect.

Mr. WOOD. Are you sure of that?

Mr. CONE. I am sure of it, sir.

Mr. WOOD. Are you sure that that information is wrong?

Mr. CONE. I think I can qualify that.

Mr. WOOD. You say that they are not operating three shifts there, do you?

Mr. CONE. I was going to say this, that the weaving and spinning mill is not operating three shifts. I am sure of that. I know that absolutely, sir.

Mr. WOOD. Is the other portion of the mill operating three shifts? Mr. CONE. Yes; some parts of it; that is, the finishing plant in which we finish corduroy. I do not believe the productive machinery, that is, what is known as productive machinery according to the cone, is running three shifts. I do know that according to the new pledge which the Textile Institute has inaugurated-well, I will say that we have signed that. We did not sign the pledge; we signed a letter.

Mr. ELLENBOGEN. Then, how can you operate three shifts?
Mr. CONE. There are no looms and spindles in this finishing mill.
Mr. ELLENBOGEN. You referred to the pledge.

Mr. CONE. This is the situation about it. I want to qualify that.

This particular fabric about which I am speaking, that is, corduroy, is a seasonal fabric. Nobody wants to wear corduroy in the summertime. During the summer and fall months we operated parts of that plant three shifts. I make no apologies for that. I do not believe any of us is running three shifts today.

Mr. WOOD. Was that firm operating three shifts in 1932?

Mr. CONE. We started some time back there. But I cannot say whether we were or not.

Mr. WOOD. During the depression?

Mr. CONE. Yes, sir; we started. There are some folks here who probably remember that the mill at Haw River was built away back during the Civil War. But I mean it came into our possession at this later time.

Mr. WOOD. I am talking about the depression period. Were you operating two shifts or three shifts during the depression period? Mr. CONE. When we started up the weaving and spinning mill we started it on a two-shift basis; yes, sir.

Mr. Wood. When did you start that mill?

Mr. CONE. I think it was somewhere around 1927 or 1928. I am not positive as to that date.

Mr. WOOD. You were operating that two-shift during the depression, in 1932 and 1933, were you?

Mr. CONE. Yes, sir. We started the weaving and spinning mill on a two-shift basis.

Mr. ELLENBOGEN. In 1932 how much did you pay to your weavers? Mr. CONE. In 1932, you say?

Mr. ELLENBOGEN. Yes; in 1932.

Mr. Wood. What were the hourly wages?

Mr. CONE. We never ran over 40 hours for the employees since the code.

Mr. WOOD. But how about it in 1932?

Mr. CONE. Since the code.

Mr. Wood. I am talking about before the code.

Mr. CONE. It was either 50 or 55 hours. We never ran over 55 hours before the code.

Mr. WOOD. If you were working a 55-hour shift in 1932 and were working two shifts and three shifts, the depression did not bother you very much, did it?

Mr. CONE. We have never run three shifts.

Mr. Wood. Did you have good business during the depression? Mr. CONE. We have not had very good business for years.

Mr. WOOD. Were you doing a better business then than you are doing now, since the N. R. A.?

Mr. CONE. I cannot say that we are very proud of any business we have done since about 1928 or 1929, to tell you the truth. But here is the point. It has been our policy whenever we gave jobs to men to try to keep those jobs running continuously. And I do not believe you will find in our organization that we have ever laid off folks on account of slack business. I mean we have cut 1 day or 2 days off of the running schedule, if we had to, on account of business conditions.

Mr. Wood. Of course, you are not expected to keep people working if you cannot sell the goods.

Mr. CONE. I think you will find the record of our company is that we have not laid them off.

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