Mr. RAMSPECK. I gathered from the statement you made a little while ago that it is your opinion that the members of your particular branch of the industry would not object to minimum wages and maximum hours if they had nothing else imposed upon them?

Mr. BESSE. I think there would be no objection.

Mr. ELLENBOGEN. On that score, Mr. Besse, how many members of the industry are members of your association?

Mr. BESSE. On the basis of the amount of machinery in the industry, it is about 91 percent.

Mr. ELLENBOGEN. If we pass an hour and wage law along that score that the gentleman from Georgia suggested, will the members of your association go into court and try to have it declared unconstitutional?

Mr. BESSE. I do not think so.

Mr. ELLENBOGEN. You do not think so?
Mr. BESSE. I am quite sure they will not.

Mr. ELLENBOGEN. You know members of the coal industry that favored the code have done that.

Mr. BESSE. Members of what industry?

Mr. ELLENBOGEN. Members of the coal industry who came before the congressional committee and asked for its adoption, but after it was adopted they went into court and they are now endeavoring to enjoin it.

Mr. BESSE. I did not know that.

Mr. ELLENBOGEN. I think if the industry would unite upon minimum wages and maximum hours and would come before Congress with a program like that they would find a lot of sympathy.

Mr. BESSE. We have no objection to either one. In fact, it is quite the reverse.

Mr. ELLENBOGEN. As a matter of fact, don't you think that is essential if the industry is to be carried on orderly and without recurring depressions?

Mr. BESSE. I think it is desirable, Mr. Ellenbogen. I would qualify it by saying that in our industry-and the same thing may be true in other industries some provision must be made for flexibility.

Mr. ELLENBOGEN. Under the N. R. A., flexibility was used for the purpose of defeating the hour limitations. That is correct, is it not? Mr. BESSE. Not in our industry. We had no flexibility other than certain exceptions.

Mr. ELLENBOGEN. You are pretty busy just now, are you not? Mr. BESSE. Not particularly; no, sir.

Mr. ELLENBOGEN. Well, did you have a pretty good year in 1935? Mr. BESSE. Yes, sir.

Mr. ELLENBOGEN. Can you give us the average hours per week in 1935? I do not mean the maximum but the average amount actually worked?

Mr. BESSE. The average hours per week per employee?

Mr. ELLENBOGEN. But actually the employees did not have an opportunity to work 40 hours throughout the year, did they?

Mr. BESSE. I can only give you that for the last month. As I recall it it was around 36.

Mr. ELLENBOGEN. That was for 1 month?

Mr. BESSE. Yes.

Mr. ELLENBOGEN. As an average for the year it would be less, would it not?

Mr. BESSE. Yes; it would be less than that. The early part of the year was less active than the last part of the year.

Mr. ELLENBOGEN. Then 35 hours would be a pretty good amount, would it not?

Mr. BESSE. Not as a maximum; no, sir.

Mr. ELLENBOGEN. You did not work 35 hours in 1935 as a yearly average?

Mr. BESSE. No. But you are losing sight of two factors. The first is the difference between some mills who have a very small amount of business and others that have a large amount; and second, the fact that a mill that fluctuates as between seasons.

Mr. ELLENBOGEN. I am not losing sight of that at all. You still have unemployment in your industry.

Mr. BESSE. We employ more people than we did in 1929.

Mr. ELLENBOGEN. But you have a lot of these Government contracts from the C. C. C. camps, have you not?

Mr. BESSE. We have had some.

Mr. ELLENBOGEN. But you could not sell any of those under this bill unless you would live up to the standards of the bill. I was over in Japan a few months ago, and I want to tell you that the woolen industry is just developing in a tremendous way, and they can sell for much less than you can. And, as you said in your direct testimony, they are just beginning to show samples of Japanese woolens here. They are making sweaters, coats, and all kinds of woolens, and very good ones. Do you think the members of your association are in favor of going before Congress and asking for protection against that condition?

Mr. BESSE. Yes; if it becomes an item of importance.

Mr. ELLENBOGEN. You believe in Government aid in that respect but you are not so sure that you believe in it in other respects?

Mr. BESSE. If I were prepared to accept the definition of "aid", yes. Mr. ELLENBOGEN. Isn't that Government aid?

Mr. BESSE. What you think might aid the industry, Mr. Congressman, I might or might not think would aid the industry. If it aids the industry, my answer is "yes."

Mr. ELLENBOGEN. If you were in my place and if you were a public official, a member of Congress, and would endeavor to find out what is good for the textile industry and for the United States as a whole, would you consult only the employers or would you consult the employees also?

Mr. BESSE. You might also consult the customers.

Mr. ELLENBOGEN. You would consult all three of them, would you?
Mr. BESSE. I assume so.

Mr. ELLENBOGEN. That is exactly what we are trying to do.
Mr. BESSE. I think you are.

Mr. ELLENBOGEN. And you cannot do it by using your way and the employees cannot do it by their way; and we are sitting in between the two, representing the public, and we are trying to do the best for all three.

Mr. BESSE. I have no doubt of it. There is only the difference of opinion as to the efficacy of the methods proposed.

Mr. ELLENBOGEN. Of course, you represent the point of view of the employers and do not come here to represent the point of view of the employees nor that of the public. Still you must admit, if you are fair, that we must consider all of those viewpoints.

Mr. BESSE. I do not quarrel there, Mr. Ellenbogen.

Mr. ELLENBOGEN. Thank you very much.

Mr. KELLER. You say you have more men at work now than you had in 1929?

Mr. BESSE. Yes, sir; we have.

Mr. KELLER. Proportionately what is it now as compared with 1929?

Mr. BESSE. The hourly pay?

Mr. KELLER. I mean during the year. If Bill Jones worked a year in 1929 and then worked a year in 1935, in which year would he receive the more money?

Mr. BESSE. Assuming that he was steadily employed?

Mr. KELLER. And what were the facts? That is what I am trying to get at. Was he more steadily employed in 1929 than now or was he more steadily employed in 1935 than in 1929?

Mr. BESSE. Taking the year as a whole I would say there is not very much difference. But the difference in his wages arises from the fact that while the hourly wages now are substantially equivalent to what they were in 1929, in 1929 he worked more hours per week, so that he took home more in his pay envelope than he takes home today. Mr. KELLER. That is what I wanted to find out.

Mr. BESSE. That is it exactly.

Mr. KELLER. You say you believe that industry can control itself better than a Government commission?

Mr. BESSE. I did not say that, Mr. Keller. I said that to date we had done a pretty good job. I am not saying that I may not come on my knees to you a year from now and ask for help. I am simply giving you the situation as it appears to exist at the present time.

Mr. KELLER. I am trying to get from you the view of all industry put together when I ask this question. Unquestionably, as has been stated here, in the Seventy-second and Seventy-third Congresses the industries of the country did come before the Congress and admit they had made a tremendous failure of running the country and asked the Congress to save the industry of the country. And the Congress did that. And at that time in a little talk on the floor of the House I called attention to the fact that the fingers of industry were crossed when they were making these requests and that as soon as we put them on their feet again they would turn around and not want Government interference. In other words, business asked for Government interference strenuously in 1932 and 1933 but just as strongly object to it in 1934, 1935, and 1936.

Mr. BESSE. The difficulty, as I see it, is finding exactly the amount of Government control that is good for the patient. The difficulty is we might suggest 40 hours, but if you fix 40 or 35 or some other figure,

you immediately set up a straitjacket that may in individual instances do a great deal of harm. It is frankly a compromise between wanting to do something and not wanting the control carried to a point where it really does interfere with the proper conduct of business. Mr. ELLENBOGEN. In other words, you think some Government control is good, but not too much? Is that a fair way to put it?

Mr. BESSE. Yes; with qualifications I think it is correct. I find myself somewhat confused as to how you can have just enough without going too far. I think our experience has rather borne that out.

Mr. KELLER. If we could do that, that would be acceptable?
Mr. BESSE. I think that would be grand.

Mr. KELLER. I reckon you are aware that outside of the projects under the W. P. A. and P. W. A. we still have about 10,000,000 unemployed idle men in America. How do you propose to do away with that condition? What can industry suggest that will give employment?

Mr. BESSE. I thought we were leaving that to Major Berry.
Mr. KELLER. We are asking you to tell Congress.

Mr. BESSE. I am sorry, Mr. Keller, but I cannot answer that. I do not mean that I have no suggestions, but I don't think they are important in a discussion of this particular bill.

Mr. KELLER. I am trying to go beyond this bill, as I think I ought to do. It seems to me that what we are trying to do here is not only just to make the corrections which this bill is seeking to apply to one industry but it is the very much greater task before us, and that is that we apply something to all industry and that we not only give more jobs to one industry but that we give universal jobs to all men under the American flag. If you have any suggestions along that line I would be delighted to have you give them to us.

Mr. BESSE. I don't think it comes within the purview of this committee. There is nothing new about my suggestions. You have heard them before. But I believe nothing would do more to improve employment conditions in this country than a conviction on the part of business men that it is not a crime to make a profit; that we were on a basis where we would pay our way as we go along; and that we can count on the soundness of the American dollar.

Mr. KELLER. You had all of that, certainly, from 1924 up to 1933; you had everything as you wanted it, did you not?

Mr. BESSE. I would not say so. I thought there was quite a little complaint after 1929.

Mr. KELLER. I did not mean to go beyond 1929 but just to 1929, from about 1921 to 1929. Of course, I understand we had the panic during 1929, but at least in 1933 we had regained practically 100 percent, and it was in 1929 that the stock crash occurred. Isn't that right?

Mr. BESSE. Yes, sir.

Mr. KELLER. During those years unquestionably industry was thoroughly in control of itself. Isn't that true?

Mr. BESSE. Yes, sir; that is true.

Mr. KELLER. Then why did we have that tremendous break-down while industry was in full command?

Mr. BESSE. I don't think I am qualified to answer that.
Mr. KELLER. I think you are as nearly as anybody else.

Mr. BESSE. Without going into a tremendous amount of detail I don't think I could answer it. It would be a waste of time.

Mr. KELLER. You are the last witness we are going to hear tonight, so I would like to have you talk a little bit about it to me. I am interested in it. I am interested in the men who are out of jobs just as much as the men in the coal mines or in others.

Mr. BESSE. You want to know why we had a collapse in 1929? Mr. KELLER. Yes. Unquestionably business was in control, as you admit. If business was not capable of preventing the collapse, then why should we go back to business control?

Mr. BESSE. Because I do not think we have as yet found any satisfactory substitute.

Mr. KELLER. We will not unless we try, will we?

Mr. BESSE. Probably not.

Mr. KELLER. You will admit that the N. R. A. was good, at least in certain respects?

Mr. BESSE. For our industry; yes, sir. Others had a much less fortunate experience.

Mr. KELLER. From what the gentleman has said to me, at least, the N. R. A. has practically universally settled conditions. I keep going back to the fact that business had been in full control up to the panic of 1929. Now, if business was in full control up to that point and could not prevent or did not prevent that panic, then why should we trust business again to control the whole thing in the United States? Mr. BESSE. Again I have the same answer, that until you have a better answer or a better means of making the machinery of this country go, I think you have to be very careful in what to do to the existing means.

Mr. KELLER. That is what I want to get at.

Mr. BESSE. I tried to make these suggestions; but they are so time worn and have been repeated so many times that I don't think you even heard them.

Mr. KELLER. Well, I will try again, if you will let me.

Mr. BESSE. The suggestion was to let business feel that it is not a crime to make money.

Mr. KELLER. I agree with you.

Mr. BESSE. Let business feel that our currency is on a proper basis and that we are paying our way as we go.

Mr. KELLER. You would not say that it is a crime to let labor make a profit either, would you?

Mr. BESSE. Absolutely not.

Mr. KELLER. Then, we agree on that. What would you do about the money? You say you want it more stable. We have agreed on that. Now, let's see if we will agree on some more.

Mr. BESSE. As to how to do it?

Mr. KELLER. Yes.

Mr. BESSE. I think Congress has to learn a little more about economy as the first step.

Mr. KELLER. Where would you start?

Mr. BESSE. I would have started with the bonus last week.

Mr. KELLER. You would not have paid them?

Mr. BESSE. No; I would not.

Mr. KELLER. Then in one place we disagree completely and entirely. We should have paid it off as soon as they came back from