Senator TOWER. Yes; we have.

Secretary CELEBREZZE. It was done primarily on the existing staff within existing agencies. The President appointed a committee, of which I was a member, together with the Attorney General and the Secretary of Labor and some others. We met and analyzed and got reports, made inquiries, and based on that came up with our report. Most of the inquiries we made as to whether or not this type of program was needed that were returned to us were in the affirmative.

Senator TOWER. Have there been pilot projects?

Secretary CELEBREZZE. I do not know whether there have been pilot projects but we have in the report here some of the inquiries that we have from certain areas in the country who want us to go in and help and we tell you how we can possibly help them.

We have, for example, the Massachusetts Mental Health model situation. We have the Crawford Health model from Crawford Mountain, from Tennessee.

Senator TOWER. Does mental health seem to be a peculiar need of the State of Massachusetts?

Secretary CELEBREZZE. No, this was an inquiry from one of the mental health institutions in the State of Massachusetts.

I think perhaps that problem is pretty well spread throughout the country, even among us public officials sometimes.

Senator TOWER. So rather than have pilot projects, you have had these recommendations as to how you can be helpful in specific areas? Secretary CELEBREZZE. Yes, plus the basic experience, that the Peace Corps has had in the years of its experience and action.

Senator TOWER. Thank you, Mr. Secretary.

Senator WILLIAMS. I have just one point. You did say that these social needs have been well illuminated; we know where the needs are and how we want to develop the program to meet them. As you indicated, I have been exposed for several years now to an area where we are just beginning to illuminate the need in the rural poverty where the migratory worker and his family live. I know this: That in my State people living in their settled communities within 2, 3 or 4 miles of migratory labor camps do not know anything about conditions there and the destitution, particularly, of the youngsters.

This program could do exactly that, illuminate the problem, describe the need to the community, and then start the machinery of care. These communities would respond in their own way, I am sure.

Secretary CELEBREZZE. As you get into these problems and as I said, Senator Williams, unless you see them, unless you live with them and perhaps have the point of vantage as public officials, we begin to see that, while we are still a great Nation and the standard of living is higher than in any other country, you can go down into the rural sections, the mountain areas, and slum areas, and you will hang your head in shame.

What we are trying to do is perhaps because of our actions of the past. That may be why there has been a great deal of deprivation among these peoples. We just have to think ahead. These people have to be helped. They have to be brought into the mainstream of economic flow or our assistance programs are just going to go on and on and on and on. The basic philosophy now in our Department in

the assistance program is not to just send a check but to try to rehabilitate and get them back into the mainstream of life.

I think the fact that last year we rehabilitated 107,000 people in vocational rehabilitation who now pay more in taxes than what it cost us to rehabilitate them is an example. Neglect that and these people are just going to perpetuate themselves.

Secondly, I think that as we analyze public assistance, which I had to do as mayor, and which I have to do as Secretary of Health, Education, and Welfare, we are trying to break the chains of perpetual poverty, perpetual assistance. These people have been there for many years. Unless we get in there and give them an opportunity to lift themselves up by their own bootstraps through a little guidance, a little consultation, then the problem is going to begin to magnify itself more as it has compounded itself in the past 20 or 30 years. So I think anything that we can do at a governmental level, because it takes organization to help these people, is helping the country as well as helping them, because our purpose is to bring them back into the economic lifestream of this Nation. You are certainly more experienced in migrant workers problems than I am, but you cannot, as you visit these camps, as you visit the backwoods, help but just wonder, is this America? Is this the America that I have been taught about in school?

I think something has to be done and this is one of the things. This is not intended as a cure-all for all of the evils of the world or of the country, but it is one of the ways whereby people, particularly in the elderly group, who can be organized, who are willing to go into these areas not from a monetary point of view but just as a service, just as you go into the Army or Navy to give 1 or 2 years' service to your country. Many people want to do that kind of thing and I keep emphasizing this because I am a great believer in voluntary service that this is to supplement, and has to work with the voluntary agencies, and I emphasize working with the voluntary agencies.

Senator WILLIAMS. I have just one final observation. Senator Tower wondered whether there have been any demonstration projects. I do not believe there have been.

There has been a study to build up the program. We did demonstrate a similar effort last summer with some volunteer students from Douglas College who went to a migratory labor camp and started a day-care program. It worked very well.

We went down and observed. Something great and new had come into the lives of these youngsters. They were learning to swim. They were guided in recreation and crafts, and it was good, but the tragedy is that this was being done by volunteers from college who obviously were going to go back to their university at the end of the summer and the kids had no other volunteers to pick them up at the next stop along the way.

The advantage of this program, I think, is to know that it would be an on-going program.

Secretary CELEBREZZE. You have a continuity here that you do not have in the type of thing you speak of, Senator. You have a continuity of at least 1 or 2 years.

Senator WILLIAMS. Your testimony this morning has been very helpful.

Senator TOWER. Sometimes I think that in our various programs and efforts we get a little administratively topheavy. I have heard some complaint on the Peace Corps, not complaint on the job that they happen to be doing out in the field, but the fact that there are too many administrators in relation to the number of actual line functionaries out in the field.

Would you envision keeping the ratio of administrators very low as compared to the people actually out in the field doing the work? Secretary CELEBREZZE. First, I do not know who is going to administer this program but, as an administrator, I would say that we are always cognizant of that fact of keeping our cost factor down, keeping unnecessary personnel off the payroll, so that, with the moneys that are to be available to them and the magnitude of the job, I think they will have to be very frugal in the expenditure of the funds, and I presume whoever handles this program will work along those lines. You can get topheavy with too many generals, as we say, but anyone who has had administrative experience, I assume, can handle that problem.

Senator TOWER. Thank you, Mr. Secretary.

Senator WILLIAMS. Your statement this morning has been most helpful, Mr. Secretary, and surely eloquent.

Secretary CELEBREZZE. Thank you.

Senator WILLIAMS. We have no further witnesses this morning so that we will adjourn to reconvene tomorrow morning at 10 a.m.

(Whereupon, at 10:50 a.m., the subcommittee recessed to reconvene on Wednesday, June 5, at 10 a.m.)

NATIONAL SERVICE CORPS

WEDNESDAY, JUNE 5, 1963

U.S. SENATE,

SUBCOMMITTEE ON THE NATIONAL SERVICE CORPS

OF THE COMMITTEE ON LABOR AND PUBLIC WELFARE,

Washington, D.C. The subcommittee met at 10 a.m., pursuant to call, in room 4200, New Senate Office Building, Senator Harrison A. Williams, Jr. (chairman of the subcommittee), presiding.

Present: Senators Williams (presiding) and Burdick.

Also present: Senator Randolph (member of full committee) and James Clay, administrative assistant to Senator Tower.

Subcommittee staff members present: Frederick R. Blackwell, counsel; Harry Wilkinson, associate counsel; Woodruff Price, research assistant; George Denison, minority associate counsel; and Robert Locke, minority research assistant.

Senator WILLIAMS. The subcommittee will be in order, please. We convene the subcommittee that is considering the National Service Corps. Mr. Shriver, we are pleased to have you with us this morning. We have had 3 days of hearings. We heard from Secretary Wirtz, Secretary Udall, the Attorney General, Secretary Celebrezze, and we are particularly pleased to have you with us this morning. As you know, the worldwide response to the Peace Corps has encouraged us greatly that we can at home meet many, many social and human needs through an analogous volunteer program of service. That is what the National Service Corps is. The testimony that this subcommittee has heard has given us much more encouragement that we can be as successful here at home in meeting human needs as you were with your people abroad. We welcome you. We are very pleased to have Senator Randolph with us this morning. Senator Randolph, I think you wanted to greet Mr. Shriver.

Senator RANDOLPH. Yes, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate the opportunity to sit with you during a portion of this hearing. It is my privilege and responsibility to share with you and other Members of the Senate the sponsorship of this very important legislation. It is imperative that the Congress give very early attention to the enactment of the measure. I compliment you on your vigorous leadership in connection with this bill and these hearings. We are interested in a knowledgeable background from which to move forward with this type of legislation. We recall the action on the Peace Corps, and the remarkable record which it has made under the inspiring leadership of Mr. Shriver.

It is appropriate, Mr. Chairman, for me to include at this point, comment which I made in presenting Mr. Shriver to a West Virginia audience on May 28, 1962. I quote:

Youth will find opportunities to participate in the struggle to achieve for mankind a better way of life and to bring forth understanding among the peoples of the earth. In each instance his individual way will contribute to the sum total of this effort and each role is important. We remember the words of Edward Everett Hale: "I am only one, but still I am one. I cannot do everything, but still I can do something."

This determination to serve has characterized the Peace Corps. Here we have individuals joined together with a common purpose. We express a deserved compliment to the Director of the Peace Corps and we recall the achievements which have been wrought under this program. Before Mr. Shriver testifies, perhaps it is good to know that he has had a rather different approach at times on Capitol Hill in connection with the explanation of his budget. He has been critical at times of the expenditure of moneys. I believe that he has also lived within the amount which has been given to the Peace Corps by the Congress. I do not think there have been many mistakes in the Peace Corps program or errors of judgment in its administration. I like the attitude of Mr. Shriver. When he found a function that was not necessary, he said so. He has been very forthright and frank in cooperating with the Congress.

I am personally and officially happy to be with you, Senator Williams, and to hear testimony favorable to the pending proposal for a Domestic Peace Corps.

Senator WILLIAMS. Thank you very much, Senator Randolph. For the other reasons we have a great affection for Mr. Shriver. In developing the Peace Corps legislation, I don't think there was a congressional waiting room that Mr. Shriver didn't wait in for a Member of Congress. We certainly appreciate the man in charge coming here to talk with us about the program we are discussing.

We are highly honored to have you talking about the National Service Corps. Now the forum is yours, Mr. Shriver.

STATEMENT BY HON. R. SARGENT SHRIVER, JR., DIRECTOR, THE PEACE CORPS

Mr. SHRIVER. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, and thank you, Senator Randolph. I have a brief statement. With your permission I would like to insert it in the record. I would like to thank you for the opportunity of expressing my own personal views on this proposed legislation because the idea of the National Service Corps, it has been said, grew out of the Peace Corps experience. I suppose that is basically correct. But I think it is also well to know or to recall that the idea of the Peace Corps itself was not a new idea. Voluntary individual service has always been a fundamental moral force in our society. The Peace Corps is now 2 years old and in that time we have made some discoveries not only about the people in other lands but also about our own people.

We have learned that Americans are not selfish and soft as some alleged they were becoming. We think we have learned that experience shows that "idealism" and "pragmatism" are not contradictory terms and that neither is foreign to the new generation of Americans.