ing. The Government Printing Office had for many years an apprenticeship system and an apprenticeship school, and we had open examinations to recruit, and the Bureau of Engraving and Printing also had one, but not comparable in size to that of the Government Printing Office.

Mr. HALL. May I make a correction? The printers' apprentice register we use was established for the Government Printing Office and not the Bureau.

Mr. DODD. The apprentice, and not the printers' assistants.

Mr. HALL. The register for apprentices was established for the Government Printing Office, and we use that register for making appointments to the Bureau.

Mr. DODD. And the Bureau of Engraving and Printing was a participant in using that.

Mr. BURKE. Is there any factor that would preclude the possibility of a present employee of getting on that register as an apprentice? Mr. DODD. There is no register now. The latest examination was

held before the war.

Mr. BURKE. That is not what I am interested in. I mean if there were a register.

Mr. DODD. If we had a register, no person could obtain a position on the register except he be a disabled veteran entitled to have it reopened to him under the Veterans' Preference Act of 1944.

Mr. BURKE. Let me ask you this-maybe I am not getting my ideas across of what I am trying to find out. Suppose we have no register. That, I understand, is a sort of waiting list to fill positions; is that correct? We have no register, but we find we are going to need certain apprentices, machinists in the navy yard, or electricians at Indian Head, or some place like that, and we are going to put on an apprentice program because we find those trades are getting short of skilled mechanics, and we feel the Government itself has a certain responsibility to help fill those trades with skilled mechanics. So, we do want to put on a definite apprenticeship program. So, as I understand it, the Civil Service Commission then publishes or posts on bulletin boards, in post offices and other buildings throughout the country, that an examination will be held for apprenticeships in these various trades. Mr. DODD. Correct.

Mr. BURKE. The people who are working, we will say, in the Washington Navy Yard or the Philadelphia Navy Yard, who might be working as sweepers or chippers, or what not, or people who are working in the Bureau of Printing and Engraving as printers' assistants, are they barred from taking that examination?

Mr. DODD. They may enter that open competitive examination providing they are within the prescribed age limit.

Mr. BURKE. Then will their service in their agency count or credit in any way toward their examination?

Mr. DODD. None whatever, because there are no requirements for entrance to an apprenticeable trade. It would be silly to impose a requirement that a man must have had 2 years of experience in a trade before he can go in as a formalized apprentice and learn that trade. Mr. BURKE. Of course, it would be an advantage to have someone who knows the agency, and knows what the work is about.

Mr. DODD. That is a possibility, but he may never be reached for certification for an appointment in that agency. He may be reached.

in the Government Printing Office before the Bureau of Engraving and Printing gets down to his name on the list, for example.

Mr. BURKE. When I started out as a nut splitter, my experience as a lathe hand did help out a little.

Mr. DODD. But that is not an apprenticeable position.

Mr. POWELL. It does not hurt, though; does it? Does not experience help aptitude?

Mr. DODD. Normally it should; yes.

Mr. POWELL. You say the register for apprentices is now exhausted? Mr. DODD. It expired long ago because the examination from which the latest register was established was held in 1939 or 1940.

Mr. POWELL. When did it expire?

Mr. DODD. As of the 16th day of March 1942, when the war-service regulations became effective, superseding the normal civil-service regulations, we expired all existing registers, as registers from which competitive appointments could be made, because after that date no competitive probational appointments were made for the duration of the war.

Mr. POWELL. Have you had any apprentices placed in the Bureau since 1942?

Mr. HALL. Oh, yes.

Mr. POWELL. How did you get them?

Mr. HALL. We took the names from the register.

Mr. POWELL. You said the register had expired.

Mr. HALL. We took boys who had passed the examination as an apprentice.

Mr. POWELL. But you said

Mr. HALL. We did not want war-service appointees as apprentices. We wanted somebody with a permanent status to come in as an apprentice.

Mr. DODD. May I clarify one thing?

Mr. POWELL. Just one minute. As of 1942 you did not have to take people from the expired register for apprentices?

Mr. HALL. Not necessarily; no. We would have to do without apprentices, otherwise. We would have had war-service boys on our hands.

Mr. POWELL. War-service boys did a lot of good work, you know.

Take the case of a man now who is in your Bureau. He has all kinds of experience of training, having been trained by the Government itself, and is trying to get a job with you, and has been trying to get one for 4 years as an apprentice. He cannot get a job, but you are still using the expired list rather than take the man who is not a war-service employee.

Mr. HALL. I do not know what the case is.

Mr. POWELL. Mr. X is a skilled helper now, and he has been in the Bureau since 1940. He served in the United States Navy, and has qualified as an electrician's helper, and has had thorough schooling in electricity. He came back from fighting in the Navy in 1945, and he has consistently since then asked for a position as electrician, and has not gotten the job as yet.

Mr. HALL. We have not taken on any apprentice electricians since I have been in the Bureau.

I am speaking now of the journeyman and men who have filed applications for electricians from other departments of the Government.

We have a long list of applications of men, and all of them skilled tradesmen, who are applying for positions as electricians in the Bureau.

Mr. BURKE. How many skilled electricians do you have?

Mr. HALL. About 45.

Mr. POWELL. There are no Negroes at all in the skilled-crafts department of the Bureau?

Mr. HALL. There is one painter. We made him a painter.

Mr. POWELL. You did not take men from the Bureau?

Mr. HALL. We took that man from the Bureau. He is a very good man, by the way.

Mr. POWELL. You do take people from the Bureau, then, when they are qualified?

Mr. HALL. We have another young Negro coming along who will be a painter eventually. We have 900 applications from navy-yard machinists; and we go there, naturally, to get a machinist rather than to train one.

Mr. POWELL. I would like to say that the members of this committee hope to come over to the Bureau maybe tomorrow, or next week, and be shown around.

Mr. FOLEY. Mr. Chairman, I was going to make that very suggestion, and invite the members of the committee who are interested to come any time. I went over to the Bureau on Monday after I appeared before your committee last Thursday. The reason I did that was because in looking at my testimony I went on to read what Mr. Richardson said. I was very much appalled at some of the statements he made insofar as segregation and things of that character are concerned.

So I went over to see for myself, and I would like the committee to come down to the Bureau at any time at your convenience, and make a personal inspection, because I think you will be satisfied, as I was, when I went over there on Monday, that the conditions that Mr. Richardson spoke about do not exist in the Bureau. We have some pictures here that we took over there on Monday, because Mr. Richardson made a statement about the Negroes being in the back of the room and the whites in the front of the room, which is not so; it just is not so. Mr. POWELL. What about sanitary facilities?

Mr. FOLEY. So far as the sanitary facilities are concerned, there is no segregation.

Mr. POWELL. It was not just Mr. Richardson who said that, but I have heard that since I have been here as a Congressman for 6 years, and people have been coming here for many years and bringing it to my attention, by scores and scores of workers, and they were lined up here the other day, and they told me, "This is it."

Mr. FOLEY. That is why I would like you to come over there. There is not a single sign anywhere in the Bureau that says "Colored Room" or "White Room" and the whites and Negroes stand in line and go in and use the same facilities.

Mr. POWELL. Would you be adverse to us coming over, or any members who desire to come, at such a time as we could be shown around not only by members of the supervisory group, but also have some of the employees accompany the group?

Mr. FOLEY. We would be glad to arrange that any way to suit your convenience.

Mr. POWELL. I think that is the next step to take.

One last question. This is just being asked from the standpoint of Government economy and efficiency, and that sort of thing.

The Civil Service Commission has now decided to hold competitive examinations in the Bureau that have been occupied by the thousands of women during the war period, is that right?

Mr. DODD. The examination has actually been held for printers'

assistants.

Mr. POWELL. And that is a position now held by about 2,000?

Mr. DODD. Between 1,800 and 2,000, I think.

Mr. HALL. 2,200, I think. That includes men and women.

Mr. POWELL. This examination is around skills needed for the job, or around academic training?

Mr. DODD. There was no element of academic training involved. The man who would normally represent this particular phase of our problem is sick and unable to be here today, but I have this more or less limited knowledge of the test which was devised.

Mr. POWELL. Is it possible now that the examination has been taken for a copy of that test to be put in the files of the committee?

Mr. DODD. Normally, no. Our civil-service tests are strictly confidential. Before the test was actually prepared, representatives of our test development section visited the Bureau of Engraving and Printing and made a rather critical analysis of the performances of the jobs of a printer's assistant, and operative, and on the basis of that study and information from the Bureau of Engraving and Printing, designed the types of test items best calculated to demonstrate aptitude, because there is no experience requirement, either, as well as no educational requirements.

Furthermore, before that test was actually administered formally in the examination rooms, it was tried out on a representative group within the Bureau of Engraving and Printing.

Mr. HALL. That is correct.

Mr. DODD. And I do not think I am going off the reservation in saying that when the persons were designated to take that try-out test those of the top group of employees were selected, and also intermediate and low-grade workers in equal numbers. I would not like to testify on anything other than that, but that is my understanding of it. Mr. HALL. That is correct.

Mr. DODD. This being an item out of my normal operating field, I would not like to comment further on that.

Mr. BURKE. I would like to ask a question. This has nothing whatsoever to do with discrimination, as such, or anything of that sort, but I just want to get some of the background.

I understand, then, that the war service employees unless they have passed the examination will be replaced?

Mr. DODD. Unless they pass the examination or, in their numerical order on the register, come within reach in the certification as to enable them to be given probational appointment.

Mr. BURKE. How far over their heads is the sword hanging? In other words, is there a cut-off date, or anything of that sort, for warservice employees?

Mr. DODD. There will be when the register is actually established. The Bureau of Engraving and Printing will be notified all of their

war-service or temporary employees must be replaced by a given date, but I cannot prescribe the date at this time.

Mr. BURKE. The net result is this, that these employees, some of whom have been in the service, will have no job security, as such, by virtue of the fact that they have been on the job?

Mr. DODD. That is correct. The war-service regulations put out on the 16th of March 1942 gave notice to that effect.

Mr. BURKE. Was that by Executive order or act of Congress? Mr. DODD. Executive order.

Mr. BURKE. That is all.

Mr. POWELL. Under Executive Order 8890, if Members of Congress find cases of discrimination in the Bureau, could they report those cases directly to you?

Mr. HARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. POWELL. We appreciate your coming over, and one day we will come over on the scene.

Mr. FOLEY. I think that will be fine, because I think a lot of the statements that have been made here have been made by people who have never been in the Bureau of Engraving and Printing. I would say, Mr. Chairman, that the working conditions and the employment conditions in the Bureau of Engraving and Printing today are as far advanced, and favorable to the things we are talking about, as they are anywhere in this county, in or out of government.

Mr. POWELL. They would have to be if they were going to be satisfactory to our President.

The Honorable Brooks Hays.

Mr. HAYS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. POWELL. We have been looking forward to you coming before us with a great deal of pleasure.

Mr. HAYS. Thank you, sir, very much.

TESTIMONY OF HON. BROOKS HAYS, A REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF ARKANSAS

Mr. HAYS. Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, I appear today in opposition to the proposal to establish a Fair Employment Practices Commission. It is not my purpose to treat in detail the technical phases of the problem of discrimination. The subcommittee is thoroughly conversant with these matters. I do wish to emphasize the fact, however, that I am opposed to discrimination and I recognize that minority groups are adversely affected in certain respects by discriminatory practices. I am entirely sympathetic with the movement to secure for racial and religious minorities full rights under the Constitution. The differences relate to the method.

Mr. Chairman, I know that emphasis is often given to things we oppose. I would prefer that emphasis be given to things I favor. It is inevitable in any issue as controversial as this that the negative attitude will receive the high lights, but I would much prefer the committee remember the things I favor rather than the things I object to, and I should also like to add at that point that it has given me some pain to find myself in opposition to the efforts of a minority group-a racial group with whom I have worked in the South—in a matter that is of such importance to them. I have not enjoyed that