I think the clearest example of the kind of reprisals that can be taken, has been taken and that will be taken is the reprisal which was taken on Graham Burrell.

He was being discriminated against because he was a Negro. He went to the immediate supervisor and the upshot of the thing was he was taken off of the job. He was told it was a woman's job. On this question of there being no reprisals there, there are reprisals.

I would like to bring to your attention, because of the fact that such emphasis was placed on the responsibility of the Civil Service Commission, the case of Mrs. Ethel C. Perritt, who is a printer's assistant in the Bureau.

Mrs. Perritt, I would like to ask you, with the chairman's permission, just one or two questions.

How long have you been employed at the Bureau?

Mrs. PERRITT. Approximately 8 years.

Mr. RICHARDSON. Were you appointed to the job from a civil service examination?

Mrs. PERRITT. From the printer's assistant register. I took the examination in 1941.

Mr. RICHARDSON. Why is it that you are a war-service appointee still?

Mrs. PERRITT. I am still a war-service appointee because I was hired at the Bureau just a few days after March 15.

Mr. RICHARDSON. Mrs. Perritt, do you feel that you learned any special skills during your period of 8 years employment at the Bureau as a printer's assistant?

Mrs. PERRITT. Yes; I believe I have been able to learn how to perform my duties in such a way that I can avoid the spoilage of money. That is definitely because I have had the training. You can only get this experience at the Bureau of Engraving and Printing, since there is no other place in the country that does comparable work.

Mr. RICHARDSON. Mrs. Perritt, would you tell the Congressmen a little bit more about the kind of work you do? When you are at the press, what happens at the press? There is a printer and two printer's assistants, is that right?

Mrs. PERRITT. That is right.

Mr. RICHARDSON. What do you do?

Mrs. PERRITT. At the press, as you stated, there is a printer and two printer's assistants. One has to lay the money on and the other take the money off. We do that in terms of, say, 600 sheets of paper.

First we have to get the paper that we need to print, and we have to be extremely accurate in placing the money on lines on these plates, and if that money is the least bit off, it is spoiled and naturally it is thrown out. You can see it takes months of experience, and it takes a certain amount of skill to be able to do that in the allotted minute that you have so many sheets of paper to go through.

Mr. RICHARDSON. Mrs. Perritt, does the printer depend upon the printer's assistant in the performance of the job of printing the money? In other words, I mean when a new printer comes in is he able to take that press and just go on and start printing the money?

Mrs. PERRITT. Definitely not. He is hardly acquainted with the mechanisms of the plate printing process. As I say, the printing of money is not done anywhere but in the Bureau of Engraving and

Printing. He has to get used to it himself. Naturally they will put two experienced girls with him, girls in whom they have respect for their ability, and they have to practically tell him everything about the work. Of course we are not supposed to know how to run the presses. We probably do, but we don't touch anything, because we know we are not skilled in that, but it depends largely upon us to train him in the work.

Mr. POWELL. How much is your salary?
Mrs. PERRITT. We get about $1,700.
Mr. POWELL. And he gets $6,000?

Mrs. PERRITT. That is right.

Mr. RICHARDSON. May I ask just one other question?
Mr. POWELL. Certainly.

Mr. RICHARDSON. Mrs. Perritt, are the printers at the Bureau also war-service appointees?

Mrs. PERRITT. Yes; we have some that are war-service appointees, but quite a few of them who were war-service appointees were sent to the cafeteria simply to fill out form 57, then they are made permanent. We had to take a competitive examination. They are Government employees soon after they are trained-6 weeks or morethey are blanketed in.

Mr. RICHARDSON. They are given permanent jobs, while you and some 1,800 other women were forced to take the civil service examination?

Mrs. PERRITT. Yes.

Mr. RICHARDSON. Congressman, I think this is very important, because the onus has been placed on the Civil Service Commission. I do not think it is there. The Civil Service Commission schedules an examination when an agency requests it, you see. Now here are these 1,800 women who have been forced to take another examination, civil service examination, in order to get permanent jobs, while at the same time you have just heard Mrs. Perritt explain to you her duties on the job, and she has explained to you how often fellows come in who are printers, whom she helps to adjust to the job, and they are given a permanent status after being on the job 6 weeks by simply filling out form 57, and yet she has to go down, with the other 1,800 women, and compete in a national competitive examination against 15,000 people throughout the country.

I just want to point out one more thing, Mr. Chairman, with regard to this situation, and that is that the Veterans' Preference Act would not be affected one whit by this situation because this job is restricted to women and there are only a few Wacs or Waves or Spars who might be interested in the job, but we haven't found any yet, because it is such a low-paying job. The agency could have requested the Civil Service Commission, or the White House, to blanket in these women just as the printers have been blanketed in, and if that had been granted the whole problem of approaching unemployment for Mrs. Perritt and the other 1,800 women would be solved, and the Government would not have to spend money to train new people.

Mr. BURKE. May I ask a question? If these people who are semiskilled, and such a degree of skill is required, receive only $1,700 a year, what do the charwomen receive?

Mrs. PERRITT. I was wrong in that. There has been a raise since.

Mrs. GILMORE. $2,400 for the printers' assistants, and for charwomen, $2,100.

Mrs. PERRITT. I made a mistake.

Mrs. GILMORE. We have had a raise.

Mr. RICHARDSON. There was an increase. I think it was last year. I think that states the problem of the printers' assistants. I would just like to point out this, Mr. Chairman: This problem is going to be solved one way or another in another 6 weeks, because at the end of the fiscal year, it has been spread around pretty much down at the Bureau, that these women who have not made as high marks as some of the people on the outside of the Government are going to lose their jobs. You can appreciate the fact that women who have worked on their jobs for years cannot go into an examination room and answer questions as readily as someone who has just come out of school. We feel that there is an arbitrary application in this business of examinations that has taken it over into the area of discrimination. have not been able to get this thing solved. We have communicated with Mr. Hall, with Mr. Foley, with Mr. Snyder, with the Civil Service Commission, with the White House, and we have not been able to get satisfaction.

We

Many women are heads of families and they face the problem of unemployment, because they cannot take the skills that they learn there and find another job. It is simply a waste of personnel, of Government money, to not blanket these people in, as the white plate printers have been blanketed in and are being blanketed in in that agency.

Mr. PoWELL. I realize this is putting a big responsibility on you, but this committee would welcome you giving to us, as quickly as possible, a summary of the facts that you have presented here now. We would like just a summary. Make it as specific as possible.

Mr. RICHARDSON. Yes.

Mr. POWELL. Plus any recommendation which you have as to what we can do as individual Congressmen.

Mr. RICHARDSON. Yes.

Mr. POWELL. Would you get that to us as quickly as possible and let us work on it, and also give us something to shape our questions to Mr. Hall when he comes back?

Mr. RICHARDSON. All right. We will be glad to do that, Mr. Chairman.

Could I just raise one other point?
Mr. POWELL. Yes.

Mr. RICHARDSON. I noticed you asked about segregation in the cafeteria. That does not take place in the Bureau of Engraving. Mr. POWELL. At the Government Printing Office.

Mr. RICHARDSON. Mrs. Gilmore has said time and time again if she ever came over here before this committee there is one thing she wanted to tell the Congressmen sitting on that committee, and that is what takes place with the Negro employee not only in terms of job discrimination but in terms of the whole smashing of his personal dignity as a human being.

Mr. POWELL. In the Bureau of Engraving?

Mr. RICHARDSON. In the Bureau of Engraving. Mrs. Gilmore, will you just tell the Congressmen here what you told me last night?

Mrs. GILMORE. I have been with the Bureau 15 years. I am a permanent employee there. I am a widow of a World War veteran of World War I. Since my employment there I have steadily seen white girls come in and raised to the top, with a small amount of education. We have girls with master degrees at the Bureau of Engraving.

Mr. POWELL. You have Negro women with master degrees?
Mrs. GILMORE. Negro women with master degrees.

Mr. POWELL. In the Bureau of Engraving?

Mrs. GILMORE. In the Bureau of Engraving. Some of them have had about 30 years of service there. They have sat there and watched white girls placed over them.

Mr. POWELL. Why is it that you haven't taken these cases before the Fair Employment Board?

Mrs. GILMORE. We have taken the cases before the Fair Employment Board.

Mr. POWELL. Has not he said he had not any cases?

Mr. RICHARDSON. Oh, yes; he has had them.

Mr. POWELL. He said he received certifications.

Mr. RICHARDSON. Yes; he has had them. I think he will amend his statement further.

Mr. POWELL. Will you give me the facts on this?

Mr. RICHARDSON. Yes; I will give you the chronological development of these things.

Mrs. GILMORE. Then, too, Congressman Powell, we are compelled to sit in a segregated room in every division.

Mr. POWELL. You mean the work is done separately?

Mrs. GILMORE. No; we are seated separately. The work is the same, we do the same kind of work, but we have to sit in back of the room and the white are put in the front of the room in every division. Mr. POWELL. Will you put that down, Mr. Richardson?

Mr. RICHARDSON. Yes.

Mrs. GILMORE. When our children come down on the official school tours we are ashamed. When we go home that is the first question they ask: "Mother, or Dad, why are the white people in front and you all the way in the back? We can't see you half the time."

Mr. POWELL. This is regardless of the seniority?

Mrs. GILMORE. This is regardless of the seniority. They don't pay any attention to that. That is absolutely discrimination.

Then in the locker rooms we are partitioned off, and the toilet facilities are also partitioned off, with the Negro on one side and white on the other, and of course some of them are very unsanitary. We are compelled to do that.

Mr. POWELL. You mean the toilet facilities are not only separate, but in the language of the Supreme Court, are not given equally?

Mrs. GILMORE. That is right. We are reminded that we are George, Mary, and so forth. It is very obvious that we must never be expected to be called Miss or Mrs.

Mr. POWELL. But as regards the separation of the rest and locker rooms, that is very important. You present that in your memorandum. Mr. RICHARDSON. Yes; we will include everything.

Mr. POWELL. The committee stands adjourned until 10 tomorrow morning.

(Whereupon, at 4: 10 p. m., the committee adjourned until 10 a. m. of the following day, Friday, May 20, 1949.)