Mr. POWELL. Yes, you have. You ought to know your facts a little bit better.

Mr. JOHNSON. What case is it?

Mr. POWELL. Will you cite the cases, Mr. Houston?

Mr. HOUSTON. Not the conductors. Mr. Johnson is representing the conductors.

Mr. POWELL. I thought this was the locomotive enginemen.

Mr. JOHNSON. I haven't been over there. I know this: I know that the labor organizations are recognized as fraternal organizations and the Supreme Court has ruled that fraternal organizations have a right to select their members.

Mr. POWELL. The brotherhoods ought to make up their minds. If they are fraternal organizations then they should not claim any union rights.

Mr. JOHNSON. We have never gotten away from that. We are classed as fraternal organizations, and we operate under the fraternal codes, so far as our insurance department is concerned. While we have a life-insurance system in our organization, we still operate under the fraternal code.

Mr. POWELL. Then you are not a trade-union?

Mr. JOHNSON. Sure we are, but we are classed as a fraternal organization, and the Supreme Court ruled that a fraternal organization still has the right to select its members. That is the point I make.

Mr. POWELL. But the Supreme Court also ruled that the brotherhood did not have the right to discriminate. It did not rule on your brotherhood, but it did on the other three brotherhoods.

Mr. JOHNSON. I don't think you can find that we have discriminated. Mr. POWELL. The Supreme Court has not ruled on that. The fact that you have discriminated against Negroes becoming members, and that, to my mind, is discrimination.

Mr. JOHNSON. That is your opinion.

Mr. POWELL. And that is the opinion of the majority of the people of this Nation.

Mr. JOHNSON. I don't know about the majority.

Mr. POWELL. Well, we know how to find out, and that is by seeing who was elected President of the United States, and one of his planks was the FEPC.

Mr. BREHM. I don't think that election meant that we would have an FEPC tomorrow. That is going too far.

Mr. JOHNSON. There never have been any Negro conductors so far as I know, and therefore we have no discrimination controversy. Mr. POWELL. That is ridiculous.

Mr. JOHNSON. I mean in our organization.

Mr. POWELL. It is ridiculous for you to even state that before intelligent people.

Mr. JOHNSON. What is that?

Mr. POWELL. That you do not have any discrimination, and you have a constitution there that says "for whites only."

Mr. JOHNSON. That is in selecting membership to our organization. We apply it to some sorry whites too, you know.

Mr. BREHM. I think on this question of discrimination there is a lot of discrimination, because I have seen signs up "Members of the B'nai B'rith only," "For colored folks only," and so forth. If you

come right down to it, what is discrimination? It is a question in your own heart, it seems to me, in your own conscience. I think you are going to have a hard time legislating against anything like this. You cannot legislate prejudice out of a man's heart or his conscience.

Mr. JOHNSON. You cannot legislate to make people love one another. Mr. POWELL. Prejudice you cannot legislate because it is the attitude of one's mind and heart, but discrimination is an overt act. Prejudice you cannot legislate against, but discrimination becomes an act, and it is the duty of the Government always to protect its citizens against any overt act.

Mr. BREHM. It says over at the congressional dining room, "For Members of Congress only." Is that discrimination?

Mr. JOHNSON. I will say this, Congressman, for the record, that we feel every man has a right to work and to earn a living. He has a right to a good home, he has a right to good medical attention, good schools, good churches, good wholesome recreation for himself and his family, but regardless of whether he is white or black, there are certain responsibilities that are his, that he must accept and discharge. I think that philosophy was taught by Booker T. Washington who, in my judgment, did more for the colored race than any other man that ever lived. I think he did more to take off the shackles of economic slavery from the colored man than any man that ever lived.

There are some people who talk about discrimination and all of these things. I think people who have lived in the Southland are in a position to testify against some of the statements that have been made. I really believe that if a canvass could be made of the colored people south of the Mason-Dixon line tomorrow, a vast majority of them would be opposed to some of the things that are being advocated by certain people in this country.

I say that with all sincerity, and I have a lot of friends down there who do think a lot of me.

Mr. POWELL. I disagree with you, but that is not apropos.

Mr. JOHNSON. I want to go back to 1914 agreement that was referred to with the Gulf, Colorado & Santa Fe. You read out of the Trainmen's Journal yesterday where they complimented some of their officers on getting 14 more jobs for the white men on that division. That agreement was negotiated after the Santa Fe Railroad bought the old Gulf & Interstate Railroad that operated between Beaumont and Galveston and the trains were manned by white men, so in order to give them some consideration for the jobs that they formerly held on the Beaumont division proper, they gave them those jobs, and in addition thereto, 22 miles from Silsbee to Beaumont. Tt is now one division, and I think there are only about six of those I am correctly informed.

I have just one more thing here, and that is in re Adjustment Board.

It is true that we have representatives on that five transportation brotherhoods, including the I think that the colored man should appreciate reason: If we did not have men there who we agreements in effect on the railroads and if th striction as to who will present cases to the we would know we would not have any contra Mr. POWELL. I agree with you.

Mr. JOHNSON. Therefore, in the submission of claims, the Board has ruled that there must be a clear interpretation of the rules involved in the agreement, involved in the claim.

Mr. POWELL. Mr. Johnson, I don't disagree with you; all I am saying is because of the fact that these representatives are on the Board, and they should be on the Board, if they are going to represent Negro workers, then Negro workers should have the opportunity to belong to the brotherhoods that elect the men who send the men to the Board; that is all. Otherwise, they have representation without the privilege of choosing them. That is the thing. I am a union man, as you know. Mr. JOHNSON. But, Congressman, I think the majority of those men on the Board are off railroads where there are no colored men.

Mr. POWELL. That may be true, but there nevertheless is a considerable group of Negro men that ought to have representation on the Board.

Mr. JOHNSON. That is right; they do have. Supposing the claim goes in, we will say, on the Southern Railroad, involving a brakeman, and it is handled by the general chairman of the white brakemen on the Southern Railway; well, when that award is handed down by the Board, if the claim is sustained, then it applies to every brakeman on the Southern Railroad, be he either white or black. So he is protected there through the operation, and they police that contract and force the railroad to apply the contract to the colored man the same as to the white man.

Mr. BREHM. That is an awfully good point.

Mr. POWELL. I agree with you, but I say since that is true the Negro workman should have an opportunity to participate in the organization that elects those men to go to the Board.

Mr. JOHNSON. I grant you that is true from the moral standpoint, but I say they could not obtain a bit more service than they are obtaining now, even if they are granted that.

Mr. POWELL. The fact is that there may be people to choose from who are maybe more sensitive to their needs.

Mr. JOHNSON. I dare say that on the Southern Railroad, or any of these other southeastern railroads, where the colored man is employed, if they were violating an agreement all you would have to do is to go and say to the general chairman of the Brotherhood of Railroad Trainmen, or the Order of Railroad Conductors, "Here is what they are doing down here," and they would see that it would be discontinued.

Mr. POWELL. Why should not they have a right to participate in the selection of that general chairman ?

Mr. JOHNSON. You take the percentage of men, Congressman, and you can go back to the peak, if you want to, it would be very small on the railroads.

Mr. POWELL. You are talking about the railroad conductors.

Mr. JOHNSON. I am talking about the trainmen. You take the Southern Railroad at the peak, or the L. & N., or any of the other southeastern railroads

Mr. POWELL. At the peak it used to be very considerable.

Mr. JOHNSON. They might have had more, but as an over-all picture the percentage would be very small. I don't know. Maybe Mr. Houston knows. I have no idea how many colored trainmen or firemen there are.

Mr. POWELL. At the peak.

Mr. JOHNSON. Take it as of today.

Mr. POWELL. Do you know the number of Negroes that used to be on the railroads?

Mr. HOUSTON. The majority, practically all were firemen.

Mr. POWELL. At what time were the majority of firemen Negroes? Mr. HOUSTON. On the southeastern railroads. They had a very substantial proportion of trainmen, but I could not give you an answer on that.

Mr. JOHNSON. I want to make just one more point, Congressman. I want to clear it up here. Mr. Houston made mention of the sleepingcar porters. It is true that the sleeping-car conductors merged with the Order of Railroad Conductors. They have their own set-up, so far as handling their labor matters is concerned.. Now the agreement was reached in 1945 where a two-car operation would be manned by a sleeping-car conductor. We were only claiming for the sleeping-car conductor work that rightly belonged to him. But they still man, as I understand it, one-car assignments. So that is not taking away from anyone the right of service other than saying that a conductor would be assigned to handle the transportation where there is a two-car pullman assignment.

Mr. POWELL. You see, in the matter of the Brotherhood of Sleeping Car Porters there is no limitation of race, as you know. There are Filipinos and Canadians. Most of the Canadian Pacific cars are manned by white porters.

Mr. JOHNSON. I did not know that.

Mr. POWELL. That is a real brotherhood. That is a brotherhood in every sense of the word.

Do you have anything else?

Mr. JOHNSON. No; that is all.

Mr. POWELL. I want to thank you for coming.

Mr. JOHNSON. I hated to take up so much of your time, but there are some of these things that there is quite a bit of history attached to. Mr. POWELL. Mr. Corbett.

TESTIMONY OF JOHN T. CORBETT, ASSISTANT GRAND CHIEF ENGINEER AND NATIONAL LEGISLATIVE REPRESENTATIVE, BROTHERHOOD OF LOCOMOTIVE ENGINEERS

Mr. CORBETT. My name is John T. Corbett. I hold the office of assistant grand chief engineer, and the national legislative representative of the Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers. I have been requested by Mr. Alvaney Johnston, the grand chief engineer, to appear as the representative of the organization.

Mr. POWELL. Has your organization taken any position on the FEPC at all?

Mr. CORBETT. No, sir.

Mr. POWELL. Have you, in your constitution, a position for whites only?

Mr. CORBETT. Yes. May I go a little bit further? It is for white. men, but it bars both white and colored women.

Mr. POWELL. Did you amend your constitution as yet the same as the railroad conductors did?

Mr. CORBETT. No, sir. We have our convention a year from this month.

Mr. POWELL. When was your last convention?

Mr. CORBETT. In March of 1947, the end of February or the 1st of March.

Mr. POWELL. In view of the fact that there are about 11 States, and today the State of Illinois has voted on the subject of State FEPC, and in view of the fact that there is before Congress a national FEPC, if they were advised of that at the convention, would your organization consider amending the constitution, as have the other brotherhoods to comply with any State or Federal regulation that might become a law? Mr. CORBETT. It would be my understanding that the officers would probably recommend to the delegates that some action be taken. Mr. BREHM. Your organization would not have any intention of breaking the law?

Mr. CORBETT. No, sir.

Mr. POWELL. If the bill became law, would you abide by it?

Mr. CORBETT. Our organization will follow all laws. We are the oldest of them and the best of them, and we want to continue to be the best.

Mr. POWELL. You are the best?

Mr. CORBETT. By far.

Mr. POWELL. The other three brotherhoods are not here. I don't think that is fair. What do you mean by the best?

Mr. CORBETT. Probably I am a little bit prejudiced-and I don't say this with a smile. I figure that the American locomotive engineer is the most expert workman in the world, that he takes the most responsibilities of any workman ever known in the history of the world, and that he delivers the product of that work more perfectly than any other individual in the history of the world has ever delivered it. He is the outstanding carrier. He makes riding on a train more safe than being at home. I am proud to represent them.

There is no restriction, because my organization does not approve anyone except the white man, there is no restriction made by the locomotive engineers that I know of on any railroad at the present time. Mr. POWELL. Now where is that agreement? The first clause of it negates what you said.

Mr. HOUSTON. That is not an agreement. That is just a notice. The engineers at present have nothing to do with it.

Mr. CORBETT. Now, if I may add something. I want the record to show that all of these colored firemen who have been referred to, they were actually going to school, if you please, to be locomotive engineers. Those men came in knowing nothing about railroading. The principle on which railroads are operated is safety first, and no man coming off the farm, or from the cities or towns, or anything like that, realizes what safety on a railroad means.

Mr. POWELL. Whether he is Negro or white?

Mr. CORBETT. It doesn't matter whether they are white or black. The locomotive engineers in the Southeast have worked with those men and have educated them and, I know that Negro firemen please many of them. Some of them in Washington.

Mr. POWELL. But those firemen don't have a chance to become engineers.