Senator ERVIN. Someone said that psychological tests are the only ways we can get through to a chronic alcoholic. I said it would be simpler to just charge the man with being an alcoholic and fire him for being an alcoholic only if the evidence justified the claim. Certainly, it is a better method than having the psychologist giving tests of this nature. The evaluation placed on answers is very peculiar. On many of these questions, the evaluation would be very difficult, for instance whether you like semiclassical music better than popular tunes. I think reasonable people will disagree on this. Mr. LYONS. It depends on your age.

Mr. AUTRY. Mr. Lyons, last year Mr. Halaby told the subcommittee that in addition to traffic controllers, airline pilots, certain executives and others were required to take psychological examinations. Could you tell the subcommittee whether Mr. Halaby was required to take the psychological examination?

Mr. LYONS. Not under the present ground rules. We questioned the FAA about having General McKee take the examination and all the air traffic controllers throughout the country. However, they did not have to take it. It was just the employees and not the chiefs and not the supervisors. That is one of the most important employees, in my opinion or of equal importance the supervisor that is reviewing the air traffic controller's work while they are in their positions.

Mr. AUTRY. Speaking of important employees, are the Secretary of Defense and Secretary of State required to take psychological examinations?

Mr. LYONS. Not under this program, no, nor polygraph tests, either. Senator ERVIN. Are they administered in the FAA?

Mr. LYONS. No; they are not. We have instances in the Army, but not FAA.

Mr. AUTRY. Mr. Halaby also told us last year, as I recall, no personnel action would be taken on the basis of the 16 personality factor test. Is that correct?

Mr. LYONS. That is incorrect. We will supply the committee with the letters that were submitted to the employees, if they failed to take The test-they would be dismissed. If they lost their ticket to control air traffic, then they are automatically-cannot work, they are dismissed from their position.

Mr. AUTRY. Mr. Macy told the committee last year

The Commission does not itself use and prohibits agencies from using personality tests as such in any personnel action affecting employees or positions in the competitive services. This does not, of course, relate to the proper use of such tests by a qualified psychiatrist or psychologist when, in his professional judgment, they would assist in his total study of an individual in connection with medical determinations for employment or fitness for duty.

Now, is that statement consistent with the present policy of the Federal Aviation Agency?

Mr. LYONS. No, it is not. Neither are some of the Civil Service Commission's regulations in their Federal Personnel Manual. There seems to be quite a bit of ambiguity. The FAA has been allowed to give these psychological tests in a nonclinical atmosphere. We contend that if the Commission and the FAA did want to examine any employee, if they had any thoughts that the employee was a neurotic or anything of that nature, that during the yearly physical exam, which all air traffic controllers undergo that the nervous individual

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be given a private psychiatric exam. Certainly the agency is not doing what Chairman Macy directed last year.

Mr. AUTRY. On September 14 the chairman wrote the Commissione Macy again and asked him what agencies used the tests in general medical evaluation programs. We received this reply-"It would tak some time to gather from all the agencies the information you requested."

We began on this investigation 2 years ago, and so far you are th only agency that can be identified by Chairman Macy. We know, however, the Peace Corps and the State Department are using them We have testimony to that effect. But I am not sure the Civil Service Commission knows to what extent they are being used.

Mr. LYONS. I do not think they do, either.

Mr. AUTRY. And I believe you said, Mr. Lyman, that nonmedical people are giving these psychological tests and evaluating them; is that right?

Mr. LYMAN. As far as the evaluation is concerned, we cannot find who is evaluating it, as far as the actual test. We could gather a grou of individuals such as we have here today and they would come along up to you, Mr. Autry, hand you this package of material and say, hand it out among these individuals, here we are the answer sheets and test questions and you are supposed to maintain some decorum in the room. As I indicated, there is no decorum. As soon as you look at the questions you immediately recognize that they have no relation to what you are doing as a controller and I am sure if you found yourself in a room with 20 controllers and you attempted to keep them from talking back and forth to each other you would have a great deal of difficulty. This is what occurred.

Again, this is why these tests are so useless, because if I asked Mr Lyons how to answer question No. 31, and we both put "B" to No. 31, we do not know if this is the accepted answer or not. But if somebody across the table saw us doing that, he puts it down because he does not want to be the exception to the rule and this is how these tests were administered, to the best of our knowledge, throughout the country.

Mr. AUTRY. We were informed time and time again by those who defended what was felt to be privacy-invading questions, that no one was required to fill out any answer that he found personally objection able. As I understand your testimony, you are only allowed to find four questions personally objectionable among the hundred or so listed on the FAA test; is that right?

Mr. LYMAN. Exactly right. If you refer to that letter-to the statement I have, it is referred to in three separate paragraphs, be sure to leave no more than four questions unanswered and we questioned the reason how they determined four. Why not say "all" or pick some other magic number? We cannot find the answer to that. Nobody else seems to know why four appeared rather than six or none.

Also, I would like to note when you asked Mr. Lyons about Mr Halaby's statement, we take exception to it because in our inquiries that we sent out to the various ALPA people, we failed to locate any airline sector or segment of airline people or pilots that were subjected or required to take any psychiatric examination.

Mr. AUTRY. We have testimony that they were, but again, no evidence was submitted as I recall, except for testimony from Mr. Halaby

Senator ERVIN. Am I correct in understanding that these psychological tests are given by the FAA generally and are not confined to people whose conduct may indicate the necessity for some psychiatric examination?

Mr. LYMAN. It is given to everybody. It started with the air traffic controllers that work with the air traffic control center. They finished that segment and went to the end-route people, the people who work in the towers and this is the area they are working in now. Rather than discontinue when they complete this segment, it is our understanding they are going to-going into the flight service station personnel, the people who maintain the communication stations throughout the country. Again, what purpose they intend to determine from these we have been unable to find.

Senator ERVIN. They are indiscriminately given to air traffic controllers who have been working for long periods of time and who have demonstrated by their actions in the performance of their work, their capacity to do the work?

Mr. LYMAN. That is correct. They did have a breakoff point for some reason unbeknownst to us and that is to exclude supervisory people or certain levels of supervisory people or above and it is interesting the controllers have recognized it a supervisor who is psychotic can be more dangerous than an employee who is psychotic. If the supervisor comes up and says, "Do this" while he is working on a radar screen, the chances of the employee refusing to do it is 50-50. Based on this order, this supervisor who may be disturbed, could cause a possible incident to occur.

Mr. AUTRY. Mr. Lyman, did I understand you to say that the pilots are not given the psychological tests?

Mr. LYMAN. In the letters we have sent out to various segments of the ALPA people, the replies that we got, they indicated that to their knowledge none of their people were subjected to any psychiatric examination.

Mr. AUTRY. None at all? So that the pilots flying the planes may have all sorts of evil thoughts about sex and religion and family life, but the thoughts of tower operators must be screened?

Mr. LYMAN. It is all right if you are flying the airplane, but do not be on the ground.

Senator ERVIN. Mr. Lyman and Mr. Lyons, I want to thank you on behalf of the subcommittee for your presence here today and for giving us the benefit of your observations and your views on these subjects.

I would like to say if there is anything in the bill that ought to be modified or changed, we would appreciate your communicating your ideas in that respect to us; and I want to say to the National Association of Government Employees that you are continuing to find ways this organization can help protect the rights of Federal employees. Mr. LYMAN. Thank you, Senator, and your staff.

Mr. LYONS. Thank you, Senator.

Senator ERVIN. The subcommittee will stand in recess until 10 o'clock tomorrow morning.

(Whereupon, at 12:30 p.m., the subcommittee adjourned, to reconvene at 10 a.m. tomorrow, Friday, September 30, 1966.)

PRIVACY AND THE RIGHTS OF FEDERAL EMPLOYEES

FRIDAY, SEPTEMBER 30, 1966

U.S. SENATE,

SUBCOMMITTEE ON CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS
OF THE COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY,

Washington, D.C.

The subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 10 a.m., in room 2228, New Senate Office Building, Senator Sam J. Ervin, Jr., presiding. Present: Senator Ervin.

Also present: George B. Autry, chief counsel and staff director; Marcia MacNaughton, professional staff member; Lewis Evans, counsel; and Rufus L. Edmisten, research assistant.

Senator ERVIN. The subcommittee will come to order.

Mr. AUTRY. Mr. Chairman, today representing the Federal Professional Association we have Hon. Robert Ramspeck, consultant, and Mr. Vincent Jay, executive vice president.

Senator ERVIN. I want to specially welcome Mr. Ramspeck to the subcommittee. He is former chairman of the House Committee on Civil Service, and former Chairman of the U.S. Civil Service Commission. You are one of the leading authorities of the Federal service, on the merit system, and on the rights of employees. You bring to this subcommittee a special knowledge, and the country owes you a deep debt of gratitude for your contributions to the civil service system.

I recall with much pleasure the fact that I had the privilege of meeting you when I first came to the House, shortly after your retirement from the House.

We are delighted to have you and Mr. Jay with us on this occasion. STATEMENT OF HON. ROBERT RAMSPECK, FORMER CHAIRMAN, CIVIL SERVICE COMMISSION, AND FORMER CHAIRMAN, HOUSE CIVIL SERVICE COMMITTEE, ACCOMPANIED BY VINCENT JAY, EXECUTIVE VICE PRESIDENT, FEDERAL PROFESSIONAL ASSOCIATION

Mr. RAMSPECK. Thank you very much, Senator. I am happy to be here. While I am now retired, I am still very much interested in the Federal Government personnel problems and particularly in what makes good government.

I have long believed that the best politics in the world is good government. People who do a good job get reelected.

My name is Robert Rampseck. I now live at 9516 West Stanhope Road, in Kensington, Md. I am a native of the State of Georgia, as