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General HAINS. Yes, sir.

Senator MORGAN. He was then in the employment of the French Government, was he not, or the Canal Company?

General HAINS. I think he was.

Senator MORGAN. And he continued so for a long time?

General HAINS. My understanding was that he was at that time, and was continued for some time afterwards, but how long I do not know. Senator MORGAN. Several years-two or three years?

General HAINS. I do not think as long as that, Senator; but still I do not know.

Senator MORGAN. You do not know?

General HAINS. No.

Senator MORGAN. Then when you got to Panama in your explorations this subject opened up, and it got to be a matter of very considerable interest, I suppose, to a good many people about whether the canal should be located at Panama or up here at Nicaragua. That was a great controversy at that time, was it not?

General HAINS. Yes, sir.

Senator MORGAN. Was that about the time that the Oregon doubled the Horn and came up to Santiago, or a little before?

General HAINS. Oh, that was afterwards.

Senator MORGAN. Yes afterwards. Now, General, you were put upon this commission of execution or of work on the canal in April, 1905?

General HAINS. Yes, sir.

Senator MORGAN. You went down there and made an inspection of the work?

General HAINS. Yes, sir.

Senator MORGAN. How long after your appointment?

General HAINS. A little over three months.

Senator MORGAN. Was the yellow fever prevailing down there during that period of three months?

General HAINS. Yes, sir.

Senator MORGAN. And I suppose that was a reason, and a very good one, why the Commission did not want to go down there?

General HAINS. I do not know that the Commission were anxious to jump into a place where there was yellow fever, but I do not think the Commission were trying to shirk it, if it was proper for them to go. Senator MORGAN. Well, they found plenty of work to do here? General HAINS. Yes, sir; there was plenty of work. You see, Senator, when this new Commission was organized, it was organized on an entirely different basis from the old Commission.

Senator MORGAN. And with new material?

General HAINS. Nearly all new material. Before that the construction of the canal was confided to the Commission. Under the President's order pretty nearly all the duties were transferred to the chairman, the governor, and the chief engineer.

Senator MORGAN. I know there was a complete change in the programme of government and construction?

General HAINS. Yes; and the other four members became practically consulting engineers to the chairman.

Senator MORGAN. I understand that. I do not care about going into the particulars of the form of the reconstruction. I want to get at the fact that there was a reconstruction, new officers were put in,

including the Commissioners and a great many other additional officers, and that after your appointment, and after you had participated in arranging this new organization, you went down there to put it into effect, and that

General HAINS. No, sir; I did not go down there for that purpose. Senator MORGAN. I am not speaking of you personally; I am speaking about the Commission.

General HAINS. No, sir; the Commission did not go down for that purpose. I did not go down there with the Commission. I went down there along with Major Harrod in July, because Mr. Wallace had just resigned and had left things down there in such a condition that the Commission did not know exactly what the state of affairs was; and we had a meeting, and at the meeting it was ordered that Major Harrod and myself should go down there immediately and see what the conditions were.

Senator MORGAN. Mr. Wallace had not been a member of the Commission prior to April, 1905?

General HAINS. No, sir.

Senator MORGAN. He was put into the new Commission?
General HAINS. He was put in at the same time I was.

Senator MORGAN. And then he resigned somewhere about June? General HAINS. The 1st of July, I think it was, or the latter part of June.

Senator MORGAN. The latter part of June or the first of July; yes. General HAINS. Yes.

Senator MORGAN. And then you went down there with Mr. Harrod for the purpose of looking at the situation and seeing how everything was getting on, what work was being done, and all about it, and to examine the situation?

General HAINS. To try to find out what had been done.

Senator MORGAN. Yes. Now, I want to take the period when you went there that is what I want to get at-and to ascertain from you, by comparisons with the situation that existed there at the time you made your first visit, as to what work had been done by the first commission of construction, headed by Admiral Walker?

General HAINS. In starting a great work like that, Senator, there is a great deal that has to be done, and a great deal had been done. At the time we were there, so far as you could see on the surface, there was not much difference in the amount of work done; but there had been an organization perfected, and they had gotten to work and had excavated something like 800,000 to 1,000,000 cubic yards of material out of the Culebra Cut.

Senator MORGAN. This first Commission?

General HAINS. The first Commission had; yes, sir. Now, those figures, Senator, are just rough figures. I may have over-estimated that; I think perhaps I have.

Senator MORGAN. I know; but the reports will show what it was? General HAINS. Yes.

Senator MORGAN. That work was really premature, was it not? The condition of the other parts of the establishment between Colon and Panama was not such as to justify going regularly to work and digging out the Culebra Heights? It would have been just as well if that work had been omitted, would it not?

General HAINS. I think it would have been a great deal better if they had not undertaken it at all.

Senator MORGAN. But you remember an outcry, do you not, in the country here, about "making the dirt fly?"

General HAINS. Yes.

Senator MORGAN. You remember that?

General HAINS. Oh, I have seen it.

Senator MORGAN. You remember the pledges of some great, leading members of the Cabinet that we were going to work to "make the dirt fly?"

General HAINS. I do not know who did it, Senator; but I know that I have heard of "flying dirt."

Senator MORGAN. We all know, except you, who made it. Now, was there not, General, a very great pressure in this country to have that digging going on at once and very rapidly while this first Commission were merely making preparations, or trying to make preparations, to conduct the work successfully and economically? Was there not very great pressure about it?

General HAINS. I think a great many people had an idea that all they had to do was to send out a lot of people there and fling the dirt out of a ditch, and get the canal built quickly in that way.

Senator MORGAN. And that was in fact the last work you had to do after you got ready for it?

General Hains. I think there ought to have been about two years spent in preparation.

Senator MORGAN, Two years?

General HAINS. Yes, sir.

Senator MORGAN. Now, General, in the way of preparation, except the diversion of this work into the Culebra Cut, did you see any want of diligence or attention or enterprise amongst the Commissioners or their employees in what they had been doing down there? Did you find that they had been loitering and disregarding their work, or anything of that kind? I refer to the old Commission that preceded you. General HAINS. No, sir; I can not say that I saw any evidence of neglect on the part of the old Commission.

Senator MORGAN. Or of any of their employees?

General HAINS. No; I do not think on the part of any of the employees, either.

Senator MORGAN. Did you hear any accusations brought by anybody against the old Commission to the effect that they were not devotedly performing their duty there in trying to put that work on its feet so that it could be done in a rational way?

General HAINS. I saw all kinds of statements in the papers, you know, Senator; that is about all. I never saw anything else, or never heard of anything else, except reports in the papers; that is all.

Senator MORGAN. Those reports, as of course we know, are not predicated upon a knowledge of the situation.

General HAINS. No, sir; they are not.

Senator MORGAN. And therefore they were either mistakes or else misrepresentations. Now, do you know of any cause, affecting all or any of the members of the first Commission, for their removal?

General HAINS. Cause for removal of the members of the Commission?

Senator MORGAN. Yes; all of them or any of them?

General HAINS. I do not see how I could very well, Senator, become acquainted with any cause for that; because, you know, I had nothing to do with the Commission. I was only a citizen of the country. Senator MORGAN. You were a Commissioner, of course?

General HAINS. No; not at that time.

Senator MORGAN. But I mean when you went down there to make this inspection.

General HAINS. Oh, yes.

Senator MORGAN. Yes, sir; and you were looking over what had been done?

General HAINS. Yes.

Senator MORGAN. As it was your duty and your right to do; and you had a right to make the most intimate inquiries in regard to every man who had been at work there, to know whether he had done his duty or not. Did you meet with any accusations against any man of an important character-I am talking about men who controlled the work as to their delinquency or their want of efficiency in conducting that work?

General HAINS. I do not remember of any.

Senator MORGAN. If such things had occurred they certainly would have impressed your mind?

General HAINS. Yes; I think so.

Senator MORGAN. Because they would have been very serious matters. So that so far as you know or could discern or see there was no dereliction of duty that was visible, if I understand you correctly, and you did not know of any accusations that were brought against that Commission or any member of it that required that they should be removed from the public service?

General HAINS. No, sir.

Senator MORGAN. Were their resignations voluntary or were they required; do you know?

General HAINS. I do not know.

Senator MORGAN. They made no complaint that you heard of about being removed?

General HAINS. No, sir.

Senator MORGAN. And none of them ever evinced any dissatisfaction with the action of the Government in removing them, so far as you know?

General HAINS. No; I do not know of their doing so.

Senator MORGAN. So that so far as you knew or were informed, there was no known cause for the change of the Commission? General HAINS. No; I did not know of any cause.

Senator MORGAN. You found that that old Commission, the first Commission, had prepared a very ample code of statute laws for the Zone?

General HAINS. I can not say that I know much about the laws that they prepared, Senator.

Senator MORGAN. You have seen the book, have you not?

General HAINS. Yes; I have seen the book, but I have not read the book.

Senator MORGAN. You have not read it?

General HAINS. No, sir.

Senator MORGAN. So you do not know what the laws of the Zone are?

General HAINS. No, sir; I do not know what the laws are. I do not consider that I have anything to do about the government of the Zone on this Commission. I have nothing to do with anything except the engineering matters.

Senator MORGAN. That is, since you have been in there?

General HAINS. Since I have been in there.

Senator MORGAN. And you have not put yourself to the trouble of trying to find out what other departments there had been engaged in doing?

General HAINS. No; not specially; no, sir.

Senator MORGAN. I have read that code of laws, and I am supposed to be a lawyer, and I think it is a very highly commendable body of statute laws, and it must have taken a great deal of work and a great deal of wisdom, too, to have enacted that body of laws for a perfectly new situation. That is the reason why I asked you about the government of the Canal Zone. At the time that this Commission took charge of the property there, the Zone, and before that time, if I understand the situation-and I want to see if you understand it as I do-the civil and criminal laws that governed there were the laws of Colombia?

General HAINS. Yes, sir.

Senator MORGAN. Or the police laws of the State of Panama?

General HAINS. Yes, sir.

Senator MORGAN. And that entire system had to be substituted to meet new conditions?

General HAINS. Yes, sir.

Senator MORGAN. That became the Government of the United States? General HAINS. Yes, sir.

Senator MORGAN. They adopted some of the old Spanish laws that were remaining there, to get along with them until they could substitute them with laws that were better. It has always occurred to me that that was a very great labor, and it was well performed. Since you have been a Commissioner, in whose charge has the conduct of the railroad been?

General HAINS. The Panama Railroad Company?

Senator MORGAN. Yes; the Panama Railroad Company. You were one of the directors?

General HAINS. Yes, sir.

Senator MORGAN. Did you ever participate in any of the meetings? General HAINS. Yes, sir.

Senator MORGAN. And took your part of the work of directing the work of that railroad company?

General HAINS. Yes, sir.

Senator MORGAN. Who are the chief men that control it, besides the directors?

General HAINS. The president of the road and the superintendent or chief engineer.

Senator MORGAN. Who was the superintendent?

General HAINS. The chief engineer of the canal, Mr. Wallace; I think he was the superintendent during the time he was there, and Mr. Stevens has been since.

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