M. Paul Etienne, chief engineer of the corps of bridges and routes of communication. M. Joseph Barba, formerly engineer in the French navy and chief engineer at the iron works at Creusot. M. Marcel Bertrand, member of the Institute of France, chief engineer in the corps of mines, and professor of geology at the National Higher School of Mines. M. Philippe Zurcher, chief engineer of the corps of bridges and routes of communication. Mr. George S. Morison. Lieut. Col. Oswald H. Ernst, Corps of Engineers, U. S. Army. Mr. Alfred Noble, civil engineer. Col. Peter C. Hains, Corps of Engineers, U. S. Army. General HAINS. In this connection I quote the following extract from a letter from Chief Engineer Stevens. He states in the letter that "of the engineers who are now on the Isthmus in the employ of the Commission, of all ranks, of all degrees of experience and knowledge, I have yet to find a single man who is in favor of a sealevel canal. Most of them are very outspoken against such a proposition; and while it may be said that they are not world-wide men in technical knowledge and experience, I claim that an intimate knowledge of the conditions obtained by a residence of months and years on the ground is of far more value than any theories or any conclusions which may be drawn from existing works in other parts of the world which bear not the slightest resemblance to the proposition at Panama.” Senator KITTREDGE. Will you give the date of that letter? General HAINS. December 19. Senator KITTREDGE. To whom was it addressed? General HAINS. To the chairman of the Commission. Senator KITTREDGE. Will you please have that entire letter sent up? General HAINS. I suppose the chairman will. The chairman of the Commission will send it to you, I suppose. Senator KITTREDGE. Will you see that it is done? General HAINS. I shall speak to him about it; yes. Senator KITTREDGE. Returning to the question I asked you before you began to make your statement and relating to the matter that you have just mentioned, I call your attention to an article by Rear-Admiral Chester, found in the National Geographic Magazine for October, 1905, vol. 16, No. 10, and read, as follows: "While on the Isthmus during the latter part of 1887 I ventured to ask Mr. Charles de Lesseps, who was then the company's manager, if he really expected, as was then widely published, that the canal would be completed the following year. He replied that, while he would not like to have it known, he did not mind telling me that in order to complete it at that time, as well as to procure a revenue for continuing digging down to sea level, the company might be forced to the lock system of construction. This would surely be accomplished in the end that is, the sea-level proposition. General HAINS. Oh, yes. Senator KITTREDGE. I move that we adjourn until half past 2. The CHAIRMAN. All right, Senator. Senator MORGAN. General, if the country between Gamboa and Pedro Miguel was as open and as easy of being cut through by digging or by dredging as the country between Bohio and Gamboa, would you prefer a lock canal across between Gamboa and Pedro Miguel to a sealevel canal through that same area? General HAINS (after a pause). I do not know that I could answer your question offhand; but I am rather inclined to think, Senator, that I would prefer a sea-level canal under those circumstances. Senator MORGAN. That is all I wanted to ask. (The committee thereupon took a recess until 2.30 o'clock p. m.) AFTER RECESS. STATEMENT OF BRIG. GEN. PETER C. HAINS Continued. The CHAIRMAN. General, are you through with your statement? Had you finished when we took the recess? General HAINS. I do not think there is anything else that I care to speak about. The CHAIRMAN. Senator Morgan, will you take the matter up with the General? Senator MORGAN. Yes. General, you were on the Board of Con sulting Engineers, were you? General HAINS. No, sir. Senator MORGAN. You were on the Commission? Senator MORGAN. The only questions that were submitted to the Commission with respect to the type of the canal were a lock canal over the entire width of the Isthmus or a sea level canal under the entire width of the Isthmus, were they not? General HAINS. Well, there were several different types of lock canals. Senator MORGAN. But I speak of the question submitted by the President. General HAINS. He directed us to submit such plans as had been proposed to or might be proposed by us to the Consulting Board. Senator MORGAN. Well, the only two plans you conferred about were a lock canal and a sea-level canal? General HAINS. Those are the only things that you could have. It is a question between a canal with locks or a sea-level canal. Senator MORGAN. A canal with locks meant a canal with locks clear across the Isthmus? General HAINS. Yes, sir. Senator MORGAN. Not partially across? General HAINS. No, sir. Senator MORGAN. You did not confer together or consult together about the question of a canal that would be partly a sea-level canal and partly a lock canal? General HAINS. Yes, sir; we did that. You know the project of the Isthmian Canal Commission itself is partly a sea-level canal. Senator MORGAN. How far? General HAINS. From Bohio to the Atlantic it is sea-level, and from Miraflores to the Pacific it is sea-level. Senator MORGAN. That is the old Isthmian Canal proposition. That is what you mean? General HAINS. Yes, sir. Senator Morgan. The proposition of the Walker Exploration Commission? General HAINS. Yes, sir. That was the French project, too. General HAINS. Yes, sir. Senator MORGAN. And at Pedro Miguel and Miraflores on the other side? General HAINS. Yes, sir. Senator MORGAN. Then it would be dredged out to a sea-level canal from that out? General HAINS. To sea level from that out. Senator MORGAN. The canal as recommended by the Walker Commission of exploration was a sea-level canal to Bohio? General HAINS. Yes, sir. Senator MORGAN. And a lake canal from that up across the divide? General HAINS. Yes, sir. Senator MORGAN. With an 85-foot elevation? General HAINS. Yes, sir. Senator MORGAN. And then a sea-level canal from Miraflores out into the Pacific-out into the bay? General HAINS. Yes, sir. Senator MORGAN. If you had absolute certainty of putting in a dam at Bohio would you not be disposed to adher to that plan? General HAINS. I would be willing to build that plan, but I think with a good lock site at Gatun I would prefer to build the Gatun lake rather than the Bohio lake. Senator MORGAN. Yes; with a good lock site? General HAINS. Yes, sir. Senator MORGAN. And how about a dam site? General HAINS. And a good dam site. Senator MORGAN. I suppose, of course, you have examined carefully and exhaustively the proposed site for a dam at Gatun and the site for a spillway cut through the hill there? General HAINS. Yes, sir. Senator MORGAN. And the site for the locks on the right bank of the Chagres? General HAINS. Yes, sir. Senator MORGAN. Have you no misgivings as to the canal that is proposed to be built there, as to its permanency? General HAINS. No, sir; I think the dam will be permanent, and the site for the locks is a good one. Senator MORGAN. Does it furnish an extensive length of earth, with sufficient foundation for three twin locks in flight, to accommodate a ship 900 feet long? General HAINS. Ample. Senator MORGAN. You have made measurements, and you have satisfied yourself? General HAINS. I have examined the drawings that we have, and when that question was raised a short time ago a few days ago, in fact-Mr. Stevens was asked to report on it, and he made a report. I believe the substance of it was read yesterday by General Ernst, saying that there was room enough to put a flight of three locks in tandem, and have each lock over 1,100 feet long. Senator MORGAN. To be permanent and satisfactory and safe, within engineering comprehension and calculation, those locks should be underlaid by a rock foundation? General HAINS. Yes, sir; that is what they are. The CHAIRMAN. Senator Morgan, there is a paper that was sent into the room this morning by Mr. Shonts, and I think I will hand it to General Hains, and he might read it and have it go into the record. It seems to pertain to the Gatun dam [handing paper to General Hains]. General HAINS. I have never seen this cablegram. The CHAIRMAN. One is a cablegram from Mr. Shonts to Mr. Stevens, the chief engineer, and the other is the reply from Mr. Stevens to Mr. Shonts. General HAINS (reading): ISTHMIAN CANAL COMMISSION, SIR: I have the honor to transmit, for the information of your committee, the following cable correspondence: "STEVENS: Wallace condemned Gatun site because rock foundation unobtainable and indurated clay with gravel bowlders and sand below not sure protection against seepage. Flatly contradicted Stearns and declared permanency earthwork dams on Isthmus not demonstrated by experience because of different conditions. Said three locks in flights dangerous, because required continuous construction concrete approximately mile long, and unless material uniform settlement be unequal, with disastrous results. "MARCH 23, 1906." "SHONTS. "SHONTS: In regard to Wallace's testimony, character of foundation Gatun locks absolutely prohibits the slightest chance of any settlement. This can not be too strongly emphasized. March 24, 1906. "STEVENS." Very respectfully, T. P. SHONTS, Hon. JOSEPH H. MILLARD, Chairman Senate Committee on Interoceanic Canals, Senator MORGAN. Well, as far as that goes, it is first a statement as to what Mr. Wallace's testimony was. General HAINS. Yes. Senator MORGAN. In which, I think, he does not represent Mr. Wallace correctly, as the record will show. The balance of it is not the statement of any fact, but the statement of an opinion. Do you know any fact to show that a rock foundation-and I am not talking about an indurated clay foundation-that a rock foundation can be had for those locks at the site of the Gatun dam, to be practically a mile. long? Have you seen any borings that would disclose that there was a rock foundation there practically a mile long? General HAINS. No, sir; I have not seen the borings. I understand that Mr. Stevens has made a number of borings, but we have not had a report of them. Senator MORGAN. You do not know what they are? General HAINS. No, sir; I do not. Senator MORGAN. Running a line a mile long, in which to put three locks of 1,100 feet you would not know how deep you would have to go beneath the level of those locks to strike rock? General HAINS. I do not know of my own personal knowledge, no, Senator; the borings heretofore made did not cover the whole of the site. They changed the site of the locks slightly. The line of boring, however, which were made a little at an angle to it showed good foundation. Senator MORGAN. As far as the borings extended? General HAINS. Yes, sir; and they went as far as it was necessary if the locks had been put in that location. Senator MORGAN. And at that angle? General HAINS. At that angle; but they changed it and swung it around. Senator MORGAN. They swung it around so as to make it more directly parallel to the general course of the canal? General HAINS. I think that was it. I think so; yes. Senator MORGAN. The first proposition would have brought the ships into the locks at an angle to the canal? General HAINS. Yes; it runs off that way, and they put it in so that it will run off in that way [indicating on map]. Yes; that is correct. Senator MORGAN. So far as this committee is informed, that is the opinion of Mr. Stevens without its being supported by actual borings which he has described to you in any way. He has not described any borings to you? General HAINS. Not many borings. There are borings that are referred to in the report of Mr. Maltby, which he sent up. Senator KITTREDGE. When was that done? When was the report to which you referred? General HAINS. I think they were made last November, for the Consulting Board. Senator MORGAN. Well, we have to leave that proposition, as I take it, as the matter stands before the committee now, for the want of proper information. I will now turn across the site of the dam, on the blueprint here. In passing to the westward from the site of the locks in the direction of the hill through which the waste way is to be constructed you pass a gulch that appears to have been washed out of the indurated clay, in the shape of an inverted cone, that is put down on this blueprint here as being General HAINS. That is that one over here [indicating on blueprint]. This is the west one [indicating]. Senator MORGAN. Is that the west one? General HAINS. Yes; that is the first one. Senator MORGAN. Then I will change my question. You pass a gulch that is bored down to a depth of 210 feet below sea level, which |