General HAINS. Yes, sir.

Senator KITTREDGE. So that at some times of the year in the dry season, I suppose-the height of the water at the Gatun dam will be 82 feet?

General HAINS. Yes, sir; I suppose it would get down to 82 feet sometimes. It might; I do not know. I have not worked that out, but I think they contemplate a variation of about 3 feet.

Senator KITTREDGE. And if the engineers have testified that it was a variation of 5 feet, would you be surprised?

General HAINS. Yes, sir; I think I would.

Senator KITTREDGE. Now, assume that it is 3 feet in the dry season, that would reduce the depth of your water through the entire distance between the locks, would it?

General HAINS. Yes, sir.

Senator KITTREDGE. So that at some seasons of the year, then, the maximum depth of water in the canal proposed by the minority would not exceed 42 feet, would it?

General HAINS. It might not exceed 42 feet for a very short time, Senator; there are but three months of the dry season, and if there is a falling of the lake and it only falls 3 feet, the 3 feet is only reached toward the last part of the dry season.

Senator KITTREDGE. But it would be reached at some time during the year?

General HAINS. Oh, it might be reached; yes.

Senator KITTREDGE. And when that condition was reached it would reduce the depth of your water to 42 feet, would it not?

General HAINS. To 42 feet; yes, sir.

Senator KITTREDGE. And the capacity of the canal is limited by the minimum depth?

General HAINS. Yes, sir.

Senator KITTREDGE. Then, instead of 45 feet of water it would be 42, would it not?

General HAINS. The way I should put that would be that you might have 42 feet for a few days; you would only have less than 43 feet for about a month and a half; and you would only have less than 44 feet for about, say, two months and a half; and for all the year except about three months you would have 45 feet.

Senator KITTREDGE. Your statement a few moments ago to us that the lock plan which you favored would permit a draft of water of 45 feet was subject to the exceptions you now state?

General HAINS. Yes, sir.

Senator KITTREDGE. That is what I had in mind.

Senator MORGAN. Just one more question before you proceed; it will only take a moment to answer it. In the construction of a sealevel canal, commencing at the Bay of Limon and running up, say, as far as Obispo or Gamboa, would it be necessary to divert the channel of the Chagres so as to enable the dredges to operate that would come in from the sea?

General HAINS. Yes, sir.

Senator MORGAN. It would be necessary to divert the channel of the river?

General HAINS. Yes, sir; all the way.

Senator MORGAN. And you think that the dredging could not be

done from the Bay of Limon, up to, say, Gamboa or Obispo, without that diversion?

General HAINS. No, sir; I do not think it could be done. I think it would be unsafe to try it. Senator MORGAN. Unsafe? General HAINS. Yes, sir.

Senator MORGAN. You mean by that, I suppose, that in the flood waters all of the work would be swept out by the flood unless you took care of it by diverting it?

General HAINS. Yes, sir.

Another reason why I prefer the lock canal is on account of the less depth of cut in the Culebra, and because the deeper the cut the greater is the liability to injury to the slopes. Landslides (I do not mean large landslides) have been frequent there. Small slides have occurred along the portion where the cut has already been made; and you will find some of these referred to in Colonel Black's reports. I have seen a good sized spring coming right out of the side of that cut.

I do not wish to be understood as saying that that becomes a matter of serious danger; but these landslides, or these slides of these pieces, which may occur and are apt to occur, will cause constant expense for reconstructing them in some way or other. The way the Frenchmen did, when they had slides in those places, was more like that [indicating]; they would build those up again; and you will find in Colonel Black's reports that there were numerous cases where those slips (I call them slides, you might call them slips) would have to be rebuilt, one or two at a time. You have to put it back; you have to build up a dry stone wall of masonry; and it has been done, and it is there now. Senator KITTREDGE. Have the small lines passing through the blue and the red or pink on that map any significance?

General HAINS. Merely to indicate the general slope. That line is drawn so as to show that this is a general slope of 1 on 1, 1 base to 1 vertical; and this is put in to illustrate the manner in which this slope is cut. It is not cut as a straight line, right down that way, but with these steps in it.

Senator MORGAN. Those benches are about 25 feet on the front? General HAINS. Different engineers have different ideas about it. On the sections adopted by the Consulting Board they are about 12 feet wide.

Senator MORGAN. On the flat, on top?

General HAINS. Yes, sir.

Senator MORGAN. What is the frontage?

General HAINS. And 30 feet high. This is about 30 feet high, and that is about 12 feet across there [indicating].

Senator MORGAN. Is 12 feet width enough to carry a railroad track? General HAINS. I do not think it would be advisable to put railroad tracks along there, on all of those places, or, in fact, on many of them. I do not suppose, Senator, that it is necessary for me to refer to Colonel Black's reports. I have his reports here, but if you do not care to hear about them I will pass that matter over.

Senator MORGAN. I think we had better get all the information we can while we are at it.

Senator KITTREDGE. State the substance of them, at least.

General HAINS. I can hardly state the substance, Senator. I will just take two brief paragraphs from his reports. Here is a report that

he made

a general report by Major Black. I will just look at the date of it. Senator KITTREDGE. Is that made to us, General?

General HAINS. No; it is made to the Isthmian Canal Commission. It was about the time that the canal was taken over by the United States. He had been down there a year keeping account of the work that was being done by the French company.

Senator MORGAN. He was "guardian ad hock;" he was guardian over the establishment until we took it over?

General HAINS. Here is what he says about slips in the cut:

"The adopted project calls for terraced side slopes above the water level, with levels 5 meters wide, spaced vertically 10 meters apart, and slopes between these levels with an inclination of 5 vertical to 2 horizontal, excepting in clay at the top, where the inclination is 2 vertical to 3 horizontal. These slopes have proved too steep in many instances, and falls of rock and clay have been frequent. When these falls took place from the slopes of finished sections efforts were made to rebuild the slopes and restore the broken levels with dry rubble masonry or with riprap. It is rare where this work has remained in place. The force in my charge was too small to keep an accurate account of all of this kind of work done, which must be classed as useless. For two points, however, it is possible to give a fairly accurate estimate.

"In May a slide took place on the east side of the cut, at kilometer 54+975"

That is a position that the map can show, as to where it was. [Reading:]

66

Carrying away parts of levels 67 and 75. Work was begun at once to restore these slopes and levels by building a dry rubble wall. The wall fell once shortly after it was started, and in part once after completion. It was finally repaired in July, and stood fairly well until November, when it was again carried away and has not yet been restored.

"Another fall took place in May on the east side, at kilometer 55+110, carrying away portions of levels 67 and 75. An effort was also made here to restore level 75. This work was also carried away in October.

"During the months of May, June, July, and August a force was employed on this work at a cost of $822.70 Colombian silver. Other work of the same kind was done, but it has been impossible to obtain data on which to base an estimate of its cost."

In another part of that same report he says:

"None of the black rock of the heart of the Culebra Hill has been found at a depth below +45 on the east side of the cut, or below +50 on the west side. Blue clay underlies it. This fact should be considered carefully in making projects for the slopes of the finished work. The effect of the lack of homogeneity in the material forming the slopes is to make it impracticable to hold a continuous steep slope. "Slips occur where the different formations abut, and also where a previous layer is found beneath the surface to which water can find its way. When the final project is made the question of slope of the bank must be left for local determination. Each section should have a treatment best suited to the material of which it is composed. No money should be expended in attempting to obtain regularity of slopes.

When a stable slope is obtained in a finished section it should be planted with vegetation. The upper surface of all level(s) for a distance of at least 200 meters from the superior crest should be kept carefully drained. During operations working levels, when needed, should be kept at least 10 meters wide."

I only quote this to show that it is a mistake to suppose that there are no slips.

The CHAIRMAN. General, is that an official document?

General HAINS. Yes, sir.

(General Hains was requested by the committee to obtain a dozen copies of the report for the use of the committee, and stated that he would do so.)

The CHAIRMAN. Now, General, kindly proceed with your statement. General HAINS. Another reason for preferring the lock canal is that it affords a better regulation of the Chagres during freshets. The regulation of the Chagres River during freshets is a very important question. The lack of preparation on the part of the French in the first case-that is, under the De Lesseps Company-was, I think, largely due to the fact that they did not provide for a good regulation of the freshets. This large lake, which is over 103 or 104 miles, I think, in area, is so large that all these freshets that come in from the little streams or from the Chagres River itself come in there and cause no trouble at all, because these freshet waters are dumped right into still water, and there is no trouble about it, except that it rises a little. But it takes a great deal of water, you know, to make a foot of rise on a lake that is 104 miles in area; and then they have the spillway to regulate the flow, anyway.

I have already spoken of the currents in the sea-level canal; and that is another reason why I prefer the other, the lock canal. There are no currents in the lock canal. The lock canal is the kind of canal that is ordinarily understood when we use the word "canal." A canal does not generally have a swift current in it, and there is no current in that canal; so that that is another reason.

Senator KITTREDGE. Do you call a current moving at the rate of 2 miles an hour a swift current?

General HAINS. Yes, sir; I do. For a big ship, I do.

Senator ANKENY. Do we understand, General, that this drift of the Chagres waters will make what we call at sea a 25-mile drift? You had some computation of your own about the Chagres waters that I do not understand; but is it what a seaman would call a 24-mile current?

General HAINS. A 24-mile current; yes, sir.

Senator ANKENY. You have to meet that to stand where you are? General HAINS. That is what you have to do. If you are sailing with the current you have to keep steerageway in that current, and that necessitates your going-well, if you wanted to make 4 miles an hour against that current you would be making only, really, 14.

Senator ANKENY. In other words, you have to meet the 24-mile drift?

General HAINS. That is what you have to do.

Senator ANKENY. Yes; thank you.

General HAINS. There is another reason which, perhaps, many persons will regard as not a very strong one, but I think it is a reason of some account-that a sea-level canal after it is finished is not finished.

That is, I mean that that sea-level canal (referring to majority plan) is not finished, and it never will be finished; and there is going to be a constant demand for widening and deepening or something or other, and I think it is going to be a drain on the Treasury which, I think, is

unnecessary.

Another reason is that a lock canal is a fresh-water lake. It has a large fresh-water lake in it; and while this may not be of great value, still it is a good thing to have this large area in here in which vessels can anchor and clean their bottoms. If the amount of commerce that is being provided for ever goes through that canal those lakes will be very useful for a vessel to stop and clean in.

Senator ANKENY. Do you not think, General, that there is a good deal of nonsense about fresh water relieving a ship of her barnacles? General HAINS. Fresh water does not relieve a ship of barnacles, Senator.

Senator ANKENY. Can you not clean your ship in any other place just as well, then?

General HAINS. You could, in fresh water. What I am referring to in speaking of cleaning is the destruction of the marine growth, like grass, that forms on the bottom of a ship.

Senator ANKENY. You did not have the barnacle altogether in mind, then?

General HAINS. No, sir; I did not have the barnacle in mind. Senator ANKENY. But you are familiar with what is so often said about that?

General HAINS. Yes. I do not think you will clean off the barnacles down there. I think there is only one safe way, one proper way, to clean off barnacles, and that is to dock your ship.

Senator ANKENY. Yes; that is right.

General HAINS. But the grass and that stuff that grows on a vessel whenever it is in the tropics for any length of time would drop off itself in fresh water.

Another reason is that the lock canal can be deepened more readily and widened at less cost than the sea-level canal. It would be a very slight expense to raise the canal walls and the height of the lock gates and the spillway in order to get, say, 1 or 2 or 3 feet additional, whereas to get additional depth in the sea-level canal would be a very expensive operation.

I think there is considerable uncertainty in the estimates, from this cause: The uncertain elements are much greater in the case of a sealevel canal. There is an uncertainty about those slopes in the Culebra cut, and there is considerable uncertainty as to the damage you will get in constructing that sea-level canal. Those uncertainties do not appply to the other canal.

The sea-level canal also has a large amount of rock excavation below tide level in it.

There is another point, and that is in regard to the claim that has been made that the lock gates in the sea-level canal can be kept open half the time. I think that is decidedly an error. I think we will find in the Panama Canal just the same thing that occurred in the Kiel Canal. They thought they were going to keep the gates open there most of the time, and they find that they can not do it. They find that they have to keep those gates closed. I have not a drawing of the gates, but I suppose you understand very well that you will have two