Mr. DONDERO. What amount of ore have they proven we could depend upon from that area?

Mr. Fox. 400 million tons of proven reserves.

Mr. DONDERO. How long, Mr. Foy, have you been connected with the steel industry?

Mr. Fox. I would have to figure how long. Thirty-nine years— since 1912.

Mr. DONDERO. I would say that two-score years in that industry ought to give you some information on the subject. I want to ask this question, and that is the reason why I asked you how long you were in the business: Have you ever had any trouble in bringing down the required amount of ore from the Great Lakes because of the freezing up of the connecting channels during the winter? By that I mean, have you been able to bring enough ore to the steel centers of this country during the months that the ports and channel were open? Mr. Fox. Yes, sir. There have been years when navigation was late in opening when we have been rather close to the edge. The effort is always to bring down enough before the close of navigation, to see you through the winter and safely beyond the date of supposed opening. There were years in some of the war years when we were flirting pretty closely with that figure, when the date for opening of navigation came, because of late conditions and the late thawing of the ice, and that sort of thing; but, we have never run out of ore, Mr. Dondero.

Mr. DONDERO. The connecting channels of the Great Lakes, and especially the locks of the Soo, have a depth, I think, of 25 feet. I mean, in the down-bound channel.

Mr. Fox. I believe that is right, sir.

Mr. DONDERO. And the ships that are being used now to transport the ore to the great blast furnaces of the steel industry, could be used to bring the same amount of ore up from the Labrador field, if used? Mr. Fox. It is our understanding that they could. I see no reason why they could not. We are talking about a 27-foot channel here.

Mr. DONDERO. Everyone who is opposed to this project always brings up the question that this channel would be ice-bound during certain months of the year. Is it generally conceded in the steel industry that the climatic conditions of the St. Lawrence seaway are just about the same as on the Great Lakes?

Mr. Fox. We are accustomed to this freezing in the winter. We have to plan our operations to take account of it, and have for many,

many years.

Mr. DONDERO. Have you any data on how long the Great Lakes are open for transportation?"

Mr. Fox. The transporting of ore ordinarily closes around some time in December. It depends on the weather, as to whether it is early or late. It might be the first of December, or might run late into December.

Mr. DONDERO. When does it open up in the spring?

Mr. Fox. It opens up in late March and early April. So between the months of January, February, and part of December and part of March, why, there is no possibility of getting ore through, and we have to consider that in making our plans and arranging our ore supply.

Mr. DONDERO. That is, it is open about 8 months and closed 4 months?

Mr. Fox. Four months maximum, I would say.

Mr. DONDERO. That is the maximum?

Mr. Fox. Yes.

Mr. DONDERO. Considering the distance, Mr. Foy, from the Labrador fields to the present steel industry, where it is located in Ohio and Pennsylvania-is the distance about the same? I mean, the distance that you now travel in bringing ore from Lake Superior to the steel industry. Would that distance be just about the same as bringing it from the Labrador fields?

Mr. Fox. It is roughly the same. I think I have some figures here, if you want to look it up.

Mr. DONDERO. I understand that at Erie, Pa., the distance is about 7 miles.

Mr. Fox. I think it is very close.

Mr. DONDERO. And to Ashtabula, Ohio, it is a distance of about 75 miles.

Mr. Fox. I think that is right.

Mr. DONDERO. So regarding the question of the length of the transportation, it is just about the same distance as you transport ore today?

Mr. Fox. Yes, sir.

Mr. DONDERO. Do you anticipate the cost of bringing ore from Labrador, if this seaway is built, would be any greater than what you are paying now to bring the. ore down from the Mesabi Range?

Mr. Fox. My understanding is it would be very much the same. Mr. DONDERO. In spite of the building of the railroad from the Labrador field?

Mr. Fox. Yes, sir. You are talking about the transportation cost? Mr. DONDERO. Yes.

Mr. Fox. Yes.

Mr. DONDERO. This ore you require for the steel industry runs over 100,000,000 tons and, in fact, it was 101,000,000 tons last year, was it not?

Mr. Fox. Yes, sir. It was.

Mr. DONDERO. If it must be brought from foreign fields, would the expense be much greater? I am talking about Venezuela, Liberia, and Africa.

Mr. Fox. I think the expense would be greater. It would in our case, sir. It would be greater partly because of the fact that we would have a rail haul on this end, and a much longer water haul, of course. Mr. DONDERO. In other words, you would have to transport it inland from the coast?

Mr. Fox. Yes.

Mr. DONDERO. Is it true that the Labrador ore is 10 percent richer than Mesabi Range ore?

Mr. Fox. 10 percent is just about right. The Labrador ore will run around 56 percent and the Mesabi, I think, is about 50, which is about 10 percent.

Mr. DONDERO. It is richer than the Mesabi field?

Mr. Fox. Yes.

Mr. DONDERO. Has all of that territory been explored so that accurate information can be given to this committee?

Mr. Fox. On Labrador ore?

Mr. DONDERO. Yes.

Mr. Fox. It has not all been explored by any means. The 400,000,000 tons, as I understand it, is the proven reserve from that part which was explored and drilled, and was sufficient to justify proceeding with the project. But, there remain considerable areas there that have not been explored at all.

Mr. DONDERO. I may be in error on this, but is it so that that area extends almost 100 miles in one direction and 40 or 50 miles in another? Is it that large?

Mr. Fox. I will ask Mr. Lumb to correct me if I am wrong, but my understanding is that the company has exploration rights there of over 20,000 square miles in Labrador and some 3,800 square miles in Quebec. Their agreement calls for that.

Mr. DONDERO. 20,000 square miles would be equivalent to an area of 200 by 100 miles, is that correct?

Mr. LUMB. I think the concessions cover 500 square miles, subject to reduction after one or two more years of exploration.

Mr. Fox. 500 square miles?

Mr. LUMB. 500 miles square.
Mr. Fox. Yes.

Mr. DONDERO. That is a larger territory than the figures I have. Mr. Fox. Those are the figures, and again I would like to say here that you gentlemen are going to have before you on Monday, I understand, Mr. George Humphrey, who can give you a great deal more authentic information about this thing than I possibly could. Mr. DONDERO. Mr. Foy, is it true the reason we do not get information faster in regard to the Labrador field is that everything must be flown into that field by airplane?

Mr. Fox. That is my understanding.

Mr. DONDERO. Your drilling machinery, and everything, because there is no road, or river, or railroad.

Mr. For. That has been the case.

Mr. DONDERO. That is all, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. LARCADE. Mr. Pickett, any questions?

Mr. PICKETT. I have, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Foy, this year, as you did last year, you have presented a very fine statement.

Mr. Fox. Thank you, sir.

Mr. PICKETT. From the standpoint from which you view the project. When did your company first get interested in the St. Lawrence seaway project, Mr. Foy?

Mr. Fox. I would say our active interest in it began within the last few years.

Mr. PICKETT. You mean, 5, or 15, or what?

Mr. Fox. Less than 5 years. Since the Labrador ore was dis

covered.

Mr. PICKETT. Up until that time you had taken no position in regard to the project?

Mr. Fox. I think no active position either way to my knowledge, sir. Mr. PICKETT. Then would it be fair to say, Mr. Foy, that your active interest in the project has come about because of your interest in the Labrador ore development?

Mr. Fox. I think I said something like that in the statement. Yes, sir.

Mr. PICKETT. I wanted to be sure that I understood it properly. Now, what other companies that use iron ore are interested in the development of the St. Lawrence seaway?

Mr. Fox. The companies interested in the Labrador project werementioned here a few minutes ago.

Mr. PICKETT. Yes, sir. Mr. Larcade asked you about that. Doyou know any companies that are interested favorably in the con-struction of the seaway other than those who are interested in the Labrador ore?

Mr. Fox. Other steel companies?

Mr. PICKETT. Yes.

Mr. Fox. No. I could not name any.

Mr. PICKETT. Just to get the record straight

Mr. Foy. I do not know that they are disinterested, but I do not know any of them that are interested.

Mr. PICKETT. I was going to ask you this question that may throw a little light on it. Do you know any of the steel companies that are opposed to it?

Mr. Fox. Not of my own knowledge. No, sir.

Mr. PICKETT. Now, Mr. Foy, in your presentation here you have made some reference to the possible dislocation of the steel industry if a ready supply of iron ore is not made available to the Great Lakes region where we now have it most heavily centered. In your presentation this morning you spoke of the expansion of existing facilities in the Great Lakes region as being the cheapest and best way to handle the increased demand for your product.

Mr. Fox. For quick expansion. Yes, sir.

Mr. PICKETT. And I believe you also referred to it as being the cheapest under the circumstances.

Mr. Fox. That is definitely correct.

Mr. PICKETT. Because to build new plants on the eastern seaboard,. or south or west would cost you a whole lot more than the expansion of present facilities.

Mr. Fox. Yes.

Mr. PICKETT. You do not anticipate then, in the foreseeable future, that there is going to be any dislocation of the industry on any great. scale. Is that correct?

Mr. Foy. Not if our forecasts and belief as to demands are correct,. certainly over the next 5 years. That is correct, because we will need the steel from all the facilities.

Mr. PICKETT. I was interested in that, you know, for the reason that in your presentation last year one of the reasons stated for the necessity for the construction of the seaway was-and may I quote it. as it appears on page 276 of the hearing record: "It is necessary to prevent forced widespread dislocation of industry, involving hundreds. of thousands and perhaps millions of people."

I take it that the circumstances that caused you to resurvey the situation from that particular standpoint were that you do not think it is going to have the effect that you were apprehensive of?

Mr. Fox. We looked at this problem last May. I think I appeared here on the 1st of May.

Mr. PICKETT. Yes, sir.

Mr. Fox. We looked at this problem at that time almost entirely. from a peacetime economy standpoint. In the month of June the whole situation, or the whole world situation, changed around at the start of the Korean War.

While we all thought about future defense last May, we certainly did not think about it the way we do today, and we were not faced

with the rearmament job with which we are faced today, and with the job of doing what is endeavored or attempted to be done today, which is to provide or make ourselves strong in a military sense and put on a military preparedness program that is just about as intensive as if we were actually in a full-scale war-certainly for the time beingand at the same time try to preserve a full peacetime economy along with it.

It has greatly changed the estimates of steel demand. We saw nothing last May that approaches the demand estimates that we see today over the next few years. So, the situation has changed very radically from that standpoint, Mr. Pickett.

Mr. PICKETT. Mr. Foy, I believe in your statement you estimated that the present supply of Great Lakes ores, in keeping with the present demands for their use, is approximately 10 years. Is that correct?

Mr. Fox. The figures that I quoted would have indicated 10 years at the time those figures were estimated. Those figures were based on 1946 estimates, and you have had revisions since that time. You have shipped a lot of ore out, and you have undoubtedly added some to the reserves.

Mr. PICKETT. Yes, sir. And I believe

Mr. Fox. We are talking there about proven, open-pit, directshipment ores.

Mr. PICKETT. Well, do you have any figures about the total ore supply based on the figures that you gave us?

Mr. Fox. You are speaking of the Great Lakes ore supply?

Mr. PICKETT. Yes.

Mr. Fox. I have only those figures I quoted, sir.

Mr. PICKETT. Well, I believe you restrict them to the open-pit known reserves based on the Minnesota tax figures?

Mr. For. That is correct, sir.

Mr. PICKETT. As I recall the testimony heretofore, it has shown that in 1920 the apparent reserves of Lake Superior ore were in excess of 1,500,000,000 tons. I believe the figures would show that since that time there have been 1,600,000,000-odd tons mined and shipped and that we still have a proven reserve of 1,000,000,000-odd tons in that area. Of course, that includes other ores besides the open-pit. Mr. Fox. Yes, sir.

Mr. PICKETT. So apparently the rate of depletion would have left us only 480,000,000-odd tons if that had been maintained as a ratio, would it not, Mr. Foy?

Mr. Fox. That is right. As I say, it is necessary, as you work these fields, to revise the estimates of proven reserves and to open up new reserves that can be proven as the fields are worked out, so that figure must of necessity be changed from time to time.

Mr. PICKETT. Yes, sir. Now, then, we took something like 78,000,000 tons out of the Mesabi Range in 1950, did we not?

Mr. Fox. I do not have that figure here, but it sounds about right. Mr. LUMB. I would not be surprised.

Mr. Fox. I would not either. I cannot verify it.

Mr. PICKETT. I think it is in the record heretofore that that is a fact. Are you familiar with the estimates that were made in 1942 that the Mesabi Range reserves would be gone by 1950?

Mr. Fox. I have heard so many estimates on that, Mr. Pickett, that I do not think I could identify the one you have in mind.