RELIGIOUS PERSECUTION AS A VIOLATION OF HUMAN RIGHTS TUESDAY, DECEMBER 14, 1982 HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, Washington, D.C. The committee met in open markup session at 9:45 a.m., in room 2172, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Clement J. Zablocki (chairman of the committee) presiding. Chairman ZABLOCKI. We meet this morning to consider various bills and resolutions reported from the subcommittees to the full committee. Mr. Bonker, the gentleman from Washington, will please explain House Concurrent Resolution 433. Mr. BONKER. I will be happy to, Mr. Chairman. The Subcommittee on Human Rights and International Organizations has attempted to take a more realistic approach to America's human rights policy. We have tried to avoid singling out various countries as human rights violators. We have conducted hearings on a regional basis, so that we can explore human rights conditions and U.S. policy in various areas around the world. One of our real achievements has been to look at human rights in this special manner. We did this in the last session of Congress in a series of hearings on the problem of disappearances as a human rights violation. As a result we were able to call worldwide attention to that human rights problem. We added language to the Foreign Assistance Act, sections 502(B) and 116, that placed disappearances with other categories that describe human rights violations. We also instructed our delegation to the Commission on Human Rights in Geneva to set up a special working group to deal with the problem of disappearances. In this session of Congress, we conducted a series of hearings on the problem of religious persecution. I would like to note that we stayed away from the problem of trying to define religious freedom and religious intolerance, which are much broader in scope. By these hearings we identified another aspect of human rights violation, and religious persecution very much falls into that category. The subcommittee conducted nine hearings. We have looked at various problems of religious persecution, notably the church in Latin America and Asia, the Baha'is in Iran, the Falashas in Ethiopia, the Copts in Egypt, the Pentacostals and other Christians in the Soviet Union and Eastern Europe, as well as the Jews in the Soviet Union and Eastern bloc countries. We have really tried to identify those areas where religious persecution is a human rights problem. The resolution that is before us cites numerous references to the fundamental rights of religious freedom in international and national laws. From the testimony that was presented to the subcommittee, the resolution cites numerous examples of religious persecution that exist in different parts of the world. The resolution, in its operative clause, calls upon the President and other officials representing the United States to work for the establishment of a working group on the elimination of all forms of religious persecution and discrimination at the 39th session of the U.N. Commission on Human Rights. I might add that in a subcommittee hearing last week, we heard from the Chief of the U.S. delegation to the U.N. Commission on Human Rights, Mr. Michael Novak, as well as Mr. Schifter, concerning this matter, and the delegation fully intends to pursue the problem of religious persecution. It would indeed support this resolution which would raise the issue at the 39th session. Mr. Chairman, I would like to commend the ranking minority member, Mr. Leach, who has been very helpful in participating in these hearings and in assisting with drafting the resolution that is before the full committee today. Mr. ZABLOCKI. The Chair will ask the chief of staff to read House Concurrent Resolution 433, so that we can go into further discussion and amendments. Mr. BRADY [reading]: House Concurrent Resolution 433, a resolution condemning all forms of religious persecution and discrimination as a violation of human rights. Whereas the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, and the Final Mr. BONKER. Mr. Chairman. Chairman ZABLOCKI. The gentleman from Washington. Mr. BONKER. I ask unanimous consent that the resolution be considered as read, and open for amendment. Chairman ZABLOCKI. Is there objection? The Chair hears none. It is so ordered.1 Mr. HAMILTON. Mr. Chairman. Chairman ZABLOCKI. The gentleman from Indiana, Mr. Hamilton. Mr. HAMILTON. Mr. Bonker, I think you have an excellent resolution, and I certainly intend to support it. I did have some question in my mind about one of the whereas clauses. I would like to call your attention to it and ask if you might be willing to delete that whereas clause for the reasons that I will go into here. The whereas clause I refer to is on page 3, and it refers to Egypt. It is a brief one, it says: "Whereas in Egypt, the head of the Coptic Christians is under house arrest and some of his followers have been jailed." I think that may be an accurate statement, but there are some mitigating circumstances here that I think all of us should be aware of. First of all, to include Egypt in a list of countries that are specifically named, such as Iran, Albania, Korea, the U.S.S.R., Eastern Europe, and Ethiopia, seems to me to put Egypt into a company of 1 See app. 26. nations with which it really does not belong when you are considering the questions of human rights. I don't want to say that their record is perfect by any means. It is not. But they have had some very special problems, and they are sensitive to the problems of human rights. My understanding is that most all of the Coptic Christians have been released at this point. The Pope of the Coptic Christians is still being detained, but when I was in Cairo with some other members of this committee just a few weeks ago, we had the assurances of the Egyptian Government that the Coptic Pope would be released within a short period of time. It seems to me that the best way to handle this problem is to continue to do as we have been doing, which is use quiet pressure through the ordinary channels of diplomacy. That approach has been successful in making considerable progress in getting the release of some of the Coptic Christians who were detained, and we now have the assurances of the Egyptian Government that the Pope himself will be released. Since that approach has been working and is working, and since we have that assurance of a country which is a close friend of ours in the Middle East, I think Egypt would be quite offended to find themselves in the company of these other nations that are specifically named. So I wonder if the gentleman would be willing to strike that particular whereas clause. Mr. HYDE. Would the gentleman yield for just a moment on that point? Mr. HAMILTON. Yes; I yield to the gentleman. Mr. HYDE. I thank my friend for yielding. I have an amendment at the desk to do that, but I want to join Mr. Hamilton in asking the sponsors to do that by agreement. We should be very mindful of the fact that politics and religion in that part of the world is about as sensitive a subject as you can discuss. In Iran, religious fundamentalism is one of the great problems of our time. It touches all of the surrounding area. In Lebanon, the fights between the Christian Phalangists and the Moslems might very well bring down that government and that whole part of the world. So Egypt is tremendously sensitive to the blurring of the lines between politics and religion. Within that context, while recognizing that Pope Shenouda is being held and we wish he weren't, we have to exercise some judgment on the situation and not characterize Egypt in the same class as the Soviet Union, Albania, North Korea, Iran, and Ethiopia. I would urge on you to do what Mr. Hamilton has suggested. Chairman ZABLOCKI. Would the gentleman from Indiana yield? Mr. HAMILTON. Yes; I yield to the chairman. Chairman ZABLOCKI. I want to join the gentleman from Indiana and the gentleman from Illinois in their comments. I support the amendment to delete the reference to Egypt from the resolution. As the gentleman from Indiana has reported, Egypt has taken steps to correct the matter, and Pope Shenoud will hopefully be released in the foreseeable future. I would hope that the sponsors would agree to delete that particular whereas clause. Mr. FOUNTAIN. Would the gentleman yield? Mr. HAMILTON. I yield to the gentleman from North Carolina. Mr. FOUNTAIN. I, too, would like to associate with the chairman of the Subcommittee on Europe and the Middle East, and others who have spoken on this subject. It seems to me that we ought to be extremely cautious in any event whenever we, in these resolutions, say something as a matter of fact, unless we are absolutely sure it is factual. Not only that, when we make reference to an arrest or something of that kind, it seems to me that we ought to be very careful that we know there is no basis for it. Mr. Hamilton has brought us up to date on this situation, and I think the facts as he has outlined them are such as to justify the deletion of this provision. I would hope that for a variety of reasons, and to make it more meaningful, the author of the resolution himself would see fit to agree to unanimous deletion of this particular provision. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. BONKER. Mr. Chairman. Chairman ZABLOCKI. The gentleman from Washington. Mr. BONKER. It seems like there is an emerging view on the committee to delete the whereas clause that deals with the Copts in Egypt. I think we should recognize that, first of all, we are talking about the integrity, if not of the resolution, of the human rights policy itself. If we are going to say that despite the fact-and the fact being in the case of this clause that the head of the Coptic Christian Church in Egypt is imprisoned, without charges-then we are saying, in effect, that if a country happens to be a friend, then we are going to delete any reference to a human rights problem in that country. The original clause was a little stronger, and because of Mr. Hyde's protest, we amended it and limited the reference only to Pope Shenouda. Pope Shenouda has been held since September 5, 1981, without charge. When President Mubarak appeared before our committee last February I raised this question. I was assured at that time by both President Mubarak and his principal aide, after the session, that Pope Shenouda would be released. All we are trying to do in this resolution—as a result of the testimony that has been presented to the subcommittee and as Mr. Hamilton correctly notes, that it is an accurate statement-is to call attention to the facts. There is no doubt about the conditions surrounding Pope Shenouda. If the committee is going to move to strike this one reference simply because the country is an ally, and admit all the other references where countries are either neutral or adversary, then I would prefer just eliminating all the whereas clauses that refer to a particular situation. Because if we are going to get into the practice of ignoring a country simply because it is a friend, despite the human rights problems in that country, then I think we are going to lose the credibility and integrity of our human rights policy. Mr. HYDE. Mr. Chairman. Chairman ZABLOCKI. Does the gentleman from Washington offer a substitute motion to strike all the whereas clauses, and delete the identification of any country? The Chair would be very receptive to that type of an amendment. Mr. BONKER. Why don't you let the other members speak, and I will ponder the chairman's suggestion for a moment. Mr. ERDAHL. Mr. Chairman. Chairman ZABLOCKI. The gentleman from Minnesota. Mr. ERDAHL. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I think all of us know we are dealing with a very sensitive issue, and I certainly would concur with the observation of our colleague from Illinois. Mr. Hyde, that in this part of the world with which we are dealing and other places as well, oftentimes religion and politics are rather intricately interwoven. Yet, I think Mr. Bonker also makes a point in wishing to retain this. Because when we read the resolution, while these countries, Egypt, Ethiopia, the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, Albania, North Korea, are mentioned on the same page, I think that Egypt in this case is dealt with in a certain specificity. As far as we know, the statement in the resolution is accurate. The head of the Coptic Christians is under house arrest, and some of his followers have been jailed. I think that in so doing, while we mention Egypt along with other countries, we refer to a very specific case where there is a violation of human rights. For that reason, I would consider leaving his resolution and the whereases intact. Mr. HYDE. Mr. Chairman. Chairman ZABLOCKI. The gentleman from Illinois. Mr. HYDE. Mr. Chairman, there is a question of proportionality here. We are mentioning Iran, the Soviet Union, Ethiopia, Albania, North Korea, and then you want to put Egypt in with that group because they have a religious leader incarcerated; one instance, really, because all the rest have been released. You are putting a stigma on Egypt by classifying it with these countries that systematically persecute groups because of their religion. You cannot say that Egypt systematically persecutes people because of their religion. As a matter of fact, the State Department in its country report on human rights practices says that there is no evidence of officially inspired or sanctioned acts of discrimination against Copts or other religious minorities. If we are going to name countries, then let's name countries. All we talk about is Asia. We lose our specificity when we get to Latin America. We lose our specificity when we get to Asia. But we are certainly specific when it comes to Egypt, ranking them with the Ayatollah Khomeini and with Albania. I just think we are all lopsided. We are all out of proportion. I inquired why we didn't mention the People's Republic of China where to my knowledge the Jehovah's Witnesses do not get to go door to door. We didn't mention North Korea. We don't mention downtown Phnom Penh, where I am sure the Baptist Bible Society is not doing a thriving business. The answer was: We didn't hold hearings on those areas on religious persecution. The world is our beat. Let's hold hearings and let's name them all, or don't name any. We are so self-righteous at pointing the finger at Egypt and putting them in this context. I don't think we accomplish anything, I think we set back the cause of freeing the Coptic Pope. 12-286 O - 83 - 51 |