up with the expenditures of the bridge, all to the disadvantage of the bridge.

As a result, the Government has brought a suit against the commissioners of the bridge for $70,000. That suit is pending and there has been an offer to compromise the lawsuit, but one of the conditions was that this man, Clippinger, and Pomeroy, who was one of the commissioners of the bridge at the time, resign. They refused to do

that.

Now, I cannot speak for the Department of Justice, but the lawyer trying the suit told me that he thought it would prejudice his case very much if Congress passed legislation which would freeze the present commissioners in office.

Now, two of the commissioners had died, but one of them appointed was appointed on the recommendation of Clippinger, and Clippinger is still the manager, and I say another audit is being made of the books.

Now, the bonds were paid off when my investigation took place in 1955. The bonds have been paid off on that bridge for 6 years and they are still collecting tolls, and the excuse has been made that Illinois will not take the bridge over because it is not in good repair. When I investigated this bridge, the engineers reported it would take about $300,000 to put it in excellent condition. Last year another investigation was made and the same $300,000 was needed to put the bridge in condition.

Now, what I am afraid of is, if these present commissioners stay in office and we have this present setup, I am afraid this will never be a free bridge.

Senator CASE. Why?

Mr. DENTON. Because I think these people are much more interested in having this a toll bridge than they are in having a free bridge, and as long as the bridge is not repaired, it will not be taken over by the State, and I do not think it will be repaired.

Let me tell you what I mean. They were paying tolls of 50 cents, 60 cents, round trip. They lowered those tolls to 15 cents. Apparently that was not enough, but that was 6 years ago.

They should have left those tolls at a figure so that the bridge would be free.

Now, they are raising the toll to 25 cents, and what I think is that these people are interested in having a toll bridge. It has been a very good thing for them. I think they would rather have it as a toll bridge and I do not think it will ever be a free bridge.

Here is the only thing I am asking, and I think we have an entirely different situation than in other cases. I am asking that the Secretary of Commerce be permitted to select the commissioners from anybody; not limited to the present members. I think that is only fair, and especially when we have this investigation which showed these charges, I think, of misconduct that I have here, when we have a Government suit which it might prejudice, and in view of the fact that the bonds have been paid for 6 years, and it is still a toll bridge and $4 million has been paid for a bridge that cost $895,000, I think it would certainly be much better legislation to give the Secretary of Commerce broad authority to do the selecting.

He can pick these people if he wants to, but I do not think that Congress ought to pass legislation which would prejudice the suit the

Government has, and I do not think with this background that the Secretary of Commerce should be required to freeze these people in office.

Senator CASE. Why do you think that these people are not interested in making it a free bridge?

Mr. DENTON. Well, I would like to give you a copy of this report of investigation, and you can see it has been a very good thing for the Carmi Times.

Senator CASE. For what?

Mr. DENTON. For the Carmi Times, which is the paper that Roy Clippinger runs. Of course, as long as they have that bridge, they have certain advantages.

Now, I say the thing speaks for itself. The tolls were paid off 6 years ago. They could have charged enough tolls to get $300,000 and put that bridge in good shape; and, secondly, I say with this lawsuit pending that the Government's case should not be prejudiced by requiring them to appoint these people against whom they have a lawsuit.

Senator CASE. Is there any requirement in the basic law that provides when the bridge is to become free?

Mr. DENTON. When the bonds are paid off, and then it is turned over to the States.

Senator CASE. When the bonds are paid off?

Mr. DENTON. It is to be turned over to the State.

Senator CASE. How much of the bonds are still outstanding?
Mr. DENTON. The bonds were paid off 6 years ago.

Senator CASE. What is the money being used for at the present time? Mr. DENTON. I think mainly for expenses of the bridge. I think about $100,000 in repairs have been made in the last year. I think that is right. I do not have the figures. But some of the repairs

Senator CASE. If the bridge were to become a free bridge, who would take care of the maintenance?

Mr. DENTON. Indiana and Illinois, just like any other bridge. Senator CASE. Is there an agreement between the two States on that point?

Mr. DENTON. No.

Of course, as I say, I have been very anxious to have this a free bridge, and we have had some difficulty getting Illinois to take it

over.

Last year they appointed a commission, and Indiana agreed to take it over, but they said it would take about $300,000 to put the bridge in condition. As I said before, when I investigated this bridge in 1955, it took $300,000 to put the bridge in condition.

So you see, there was not enough money raised to put that bridge in condition with the expense and maintenance that they were having, which, I think, is very poor management, and I think certainly there ought to be an incentive to have this bridge free.

Senator CASE. How long were these commissioners appointed for? Mr. DENTON. That is something kind of funny. I cannot answer that. In the act three of them were named. The act provides if there is a vacancy, it should be filled by the Public Works Administrator. Now, I thought Public Works went over to General Services. But, anyhow, two vacancies occurred and they were filled by the Secretary of Commerce.

And, as I say, how long are they in for, I do not know. The original men were named in the act. And, of course, I do not want to go into this, but I doubt if Congress can legislate people in office. Senator CASE. What was that?

Mr. DENTON. I doubt very much if Congress can legislate people in office.

Senator CASE. You say you do not think Congress can legislate people into office, but you think it can legislate them out?

Mr. DENTON. What?

Senator CASE. You just said you thought that Congress could not legislate people into office, but you do think Congress can legislate them out?

Mr. DENTON. I do not think there is any doubt in the world. Congress created the act and it can repeal it. It can modify any act it passes.

Senator CASE. Are you interested in having a free bridge or are you interested in getting these people out of their jobs?

Mr. DENTON. I do not care a bit about jobs. I am interested primarily in having that bridge free.

Senator CASE. And you would be satisfied if Congress were to pass legislation which would require that after such and such a date, the bridge is to become a free bridge?

Mr. DENTON. We have already got that legislation.

law now.

That is the

But you have to get Indiana and Illinois to take it over, the difficulty being that Illinois will not take it over because they said it was not in repair.

The point I am making is that for 6 years they have done nothing to put that bridge in repair so it would be taken over.

Senator CASE. If Congress legislated to have the bridge repaired, would these States take it over?

Mr. DENTON. Of course, I cannot speak for Illinois. I know Indiana would. But, of course, they have always agreed to take it over. I would think they would, but I do not know how the Congress could legislate that it be repaired.

Senator CASE. Congress could either direct or it could appropriate for it?

Mr. DENTON. Oh, yes; you could appropriate for it, that is right. Senator CASE. Or it could direct that the tolls should be of sufficient amount to provide the repairs?

Mr. DENTON. Congress would pay half of it, anyhow, under the 5050 law. It would be very little for both States to take it over. As I say, my prime interest in this thing is to see that it is a free bridge.

Senator CASE. You do not care who the commissioners are, just so that they make the bridge a free bridge?

Mr. DENTON. I think that is right. But I do not think-
Senator CASE. Well, do you know whether it is right or not?

Mr. DENTON. I want to say this. I do not think the Secretary of Commerce should be limited in his selection to the people who are now in, against whom one branch of the Government has a lawsuit for misuse of funds.

Senator CASE. Why is the Secretary limited to the people who are now in?

Mr. DENTON. What did you say?

Senator CASE. Why is the Secretary limited to the people who are now in?

Mr. DENTON. That is what the Senate act does and the House act does not. I am just like the Bureau of Public Roads on that. I do not think it should be limited to the people that are in.

I doubt, Senator, very much the constitutionality of limiting an executive to pick certain people. I do not think you could pass a law that Joe Doakes would be Secretary of the Treasury. We have three branches of Government and the appointing power is in the Executive, not in the Congress. Of course, we could appoint our own officers, people like the Sergeant at Arms, Doorkeepers, and those things, but this is another matter entirely.

Senator FONG. According to section 2(b), if the Secretary of Commerce reappoints him, he shall reappoint one-third of the members, and the one-third of the members shall hold office for 2 years.

Mr. DENTON. What, Senator?

Senator FONG. If the Secretary of Commerce were to appoint, he will be forced to reappoint not more than one-third of the persons who are members of such bridge commission or authority on the date of enactment of this act.

And one-third of the commission shall serve for 2 years. So he would be shackled only for 2 years, would he not?

Mr. DENTON. Yes.

Under the Senate bill, he would be frozen, these people would be frozen in for 2, 4, and 6 years.

Senator KERR. But under his amendment, as I understand it-and you correct me if I am wrong the provision with reference to this bridge is that the Secretary of Commerce would be free to immediately appoint all three commissioners.

Senator FONG. Yes.

But according to section 2 here, it reads, as follows:

Each person who is a member, on the date of enactment of this act, of a bridge commission or authority created by act of Congress shall continue in office until the expiration of his present term, except as provided under subsection (b) of this section.

(b) (1) Except as provided in paragraph (2) of this subsection, where provision is made in the act creating a bridge commission or authority for membership thereon without limitation as to length of term of office, the Secretary of Commerce shall, on or before the expiration of 90 days after the date of this act, reappoint not more than one-third of the persons who are members of such bridge commission or authority on the date of enactment of this act as members of such bridge commission or authority for a term of 2 years from the date of reappointment.

So I gather, if he has to reappoint and reappoints only one-third of the members, he would be shackled for 2 years.

Senator KERR. The Senator is reading from the Senate bill.
Mr. DENTON. That is what I do not want.

Senator KERR. The bill before us is the House bill, which changes that, insofar as this one bridge is concerned.

Mr. DENTON. Senator, I presented this to the House, and when I did, they did not think it was right with this background of investigation-I would like to give you some of these copies of this investigation showing, I think, misuse of funds, and with the Government having a lawsuit which might be prejudiced by any action Congress took.

They did not think that the Secretary of Commerce should be frozen, required only to appoint the people who are now in. Senator COOPER. May I ask a question, Mr. Chairman?

Senator KERR. If Senator Fong is through.

I would like for the Senator to have a copy here of the language that is in the House bill.

Senator FONG. I only have the Senate bill, 49.

Senator KERR. Here is a copy of the language in the House bill with reference to this one bridge.

Senator FONG. Yes, I understand now that we are going to be in conference between the House bill and the Senate bill.

Senator KERR. We will not be if we report the House bill out as they passed it, and there is no conference in order at this time, because we passed one bill and sent it over there and it is over there and they passed another bill and sent it over here, which is over here.

Now, if we were to amend their bill and ask for a conference, we could have one. But since they did not choose to amend our bill and ask for a conference, we are in the legislative posture, if I understand it, and I want the staff to correct me if I am wrong, of having passed a bill which is over there and their having passed a bill which is over here.

Under those circumstances a conference is not in order until one of the two Houses acts on the bill passed by the other with amendments and asks for a conference.

Senator FONG. The Congressman says that he is not in favor of the Senate bill because the provision in the Senate bill freezes the members on the commission?

Mr. DENTON. That is right.

Senator KERR. He is not interested in the commission on other bridges but this one.

Mr. DENTON. This is the one I care about.

Senator KERR. The Senator from Kentucky?

Senator COOPER. Congressman Denton, as Senator Kerr has pointed out, and I think it is correct, on page 4, subparagraph 2, your bill really provides that these commission members will be discharged. That is what it amounts to, is it not?

Mr. DENTON. In 90 days, yes.

It gives the Secretary of Commerce the power to appoint three new members. He can appoint these people if he wants to, but he is not limited to them.

Senator KERR. What it says is that the present commissioners shall be discharged. It does not say that the Secretary cannot reappoint them.

Mr. DENTON. Senator, under this bill they are all discharged in 90 days.

Senator COOPER. I raise this question. On page 3, of course, your first provision provides that members of the bridge commission and authorities now existing, it actually provides that those members shall continue in office until their present term expires, provided that they shall be spaced 2, 4, and 6 years.

This is on page 4.

It seems to me that the intent is that these members shall be discharged.