according to the capacity of the receivers we shall get more truth into them, but that they think we shall get a great deal too much into them. It seems to me that that is an argument which will not hold. I feel it deeply, and for this reason-I have ventured always when dealing with my own clergy to say this" So far as the parental trust commits a child to you, take it and teach it all you can; but do not agree to take any scholar from a government that would bind you, you being a Christian teacher, to withhold any Christian teaching."

THE VERY REV. THE DEAN OF WATERFORD :

I have listened with very great attention to all that has been stated on both sides of this most important question, though I do not, of course, agree with all that has been said, because opposite opinions have been propounded. That question is as to the relationship existing between the Church and the State with regard to National Education. It may not be known to our friends in England that the Church in Ireland has never taken any step with reference to this great question. Dr. Day has alluded to the Kildare Place Society: it was the only society which was engaged, before the establishment of the National Board, in the education of the people of Ireland. It is true that the Society for Discountenancing Vice had a few schools, but its object was not the establishment of schools but the circulation of the Scriptures it only embraced them as apart of its more special working. But the only system receiving aid from the State for the education of the people was, as Dr. Day already said, the Kildare Place Society. He has said that that society was a success. I maintain and believe that it was a failure. It never received the co-operation of the Church. I know it as a positive fact, from the sworn evidence of its own honorary secretaries, that the commitee was composed of every profession except the clergy—that it was the rule of the society that they never allowed a clergyman to be on the managing committee of that society, and there never was one except the Rev. Dr. Thorpe, the founder of the society, and because he wrote a pamphlet once against the Catholic Emancipation Act his name was designedly omitted from the list of the committee for the next year. And what is more than that, there never was one single bishop of our Church who ever gave one single guinea to the funds of that society.

I am old enough to remember the time when the Kildare Place Society was more vehemently opposed than the National Board ever was, by the clergy of the Church. No clergyman, as I have said, was on its Committee. No bishop ever subscribed a penny to it, and every clergyman, as far as I know, was opposed to it. The Kildare Place Society was a great compromise, of a character which would not be listened to by Archdeacon Denison and many of our English friends, because it gave up the teaching of the catechism and formularies of the Church, and only insisted upon the teaching of the Scriptures. Dr. Day says that the Bible is the common ground between all the different sects in Ireland, and of course between the Roman Catholics and Protestants. Now I deny that. In the first place we do not agree upon what constitutes the Scriptures. Does anyone pretend now to say that the Established Church of Ireland, the true Protestant Church, believes and teaches that the apocryphal books form part and parcel of the sacred volume? No Protestant does say they are written by inspiration, but Roman Catholics do; and while Protestants believe that their children ought to be taught and trained up in the knowledge of the Scriptures, Roman Catholics do not. I say, therefore, the Bible is no more a common

ground for instruction between Protestants and Roman Catholics than the Catechism of our Church is. I think the State ought to provide the religion of which it is the professor and maintainer; but this is not, I believe, a Protestant country. The House of Lords is not exclusively Protestant-the House of Commons is very far from being exclusively Protestant, and yet the House of Commons has the disposal of the taxation of the country, and the taxes are paid by all denominations alike. It is, therefore, the duty of the State to provide a system of education which shall be received by all the people; and it is the duty of the Church to accept the offers of the State and to give religious instruction to every child whatever who will receive it at their hands. But this religious instruction ought not to be compulsory. The clergy should not force it upon those who will not receive it, and they can do no more than offer it, and give it to those who will receive it.

THE REV. GEORGE WEBSTER, D.D. :—

I should never venture to address your Grace or this august assembly that I see before me, under the present circumstances, if it was not that I have a firm belief in my fellow creatures (prolonged laughter). Now that, you know, is cheating me out of part of my ten minutes; but I do believe that if one has to say anything, no matter how opposed it may be to the belief of his fellow-creatures, what he says will always be listened to provided the people to whom he speaks believe that he is really speaking from the very bottom of his heart. Let me simply state facts. I happen to be myself the patron of six National Schools, and I have now in these six schools over three hundred Church children. I have also a Model School under the National System in which I have nearly five hundred Church children; and these eight hundred children are under my control and instruction directly or indirectly. I open my own schools myself, and have done so since I went down to that district, eleven years since, every morning with prayer (a voice, "contrary to the rule of the Board"). That gentleman will recollect that it is not very likely that a person occupying my position in Cork would subject himself by any breaking of rule to be hauled up by the Board. Well, I open the schools every morning with prayer. I have one hour, from ten to eleven o'clock, devoted to religious instruction; I could have two or three different hours if I pleased—from ten to eleven or twelve to one or two to three-in fact any hour I pleased, all that the Board requires is that four hours each day should be devoted to secular instruction. I appoint all the teachers of these six schools myself, and I take very good care that they are members of the Church of England and Ireland, and I have them helping me at the religious instruction. Now, that is the work which goes on in these schools of mine and has gone on for years. Then since 1865 I have had, thank God-well I beg your pardon for saying "thank God "—but since that time I have had a Model School in my parish and I am there every day in the week myself, and I take a large class there, sometimes of boys and sometimes of girls, and teach them the formularies and distinct principles of the Church. Our principle is to make no compromise whatever with Dissent during the time for religious instruction. We must then be at liberty, as we are, to teach everything that we believe to be God's Truth. Sometime since a Methodist minister in my neighbourhood sent me word that he would allow all his children to come to my religious instruction if I undertook not to teach them the Church Catechism. Well, I have got rather a name down

there for saying exactly what I think plainly and openly, and what do you think was my answer to that message? Just, "that I would not undertake to bring any one to heaven without teaching them the Church Catechism." Seriously, what I meant was, I would not undertake to teach them religion if they did not learn all that I believed to be Christian truth.

Well, my lord, I was rather startled a moment ago at hearing it brought forward before this meeting that the speaker regarded it as a great instance of the success of 66 a system" of education pursued in some places that not a single convert had been made. 'Tis true he spoke of " surreptitious conversion." So let that go for what it is worth. I beg leave to say, as a Churchman, and I venture to call myself one, although by no means a "high” Churchman, if that learned speaker had told me that the operations of that 66 system" in England had worked in such a way as that they were leavening the whole of England, and were bringing into the Church those who were marshalling themselves against the Church, much more might be said, in my opinion, for his "system" than has been advanced by him here, when he has defied anyone to prove that under it a single convert had been made. If I had time I might bring before you many instances of young men who have, under the influence of the catechetical teaching in our schools, been led to think for themselves seriously and profitably, who, when they were boys, had their attention arrested by the sharpness and distinctness of my rule of refusing to give religious instruction under any limitations or restrictions; and I know that I myself would not undertake the religious education of any child without teaching him the catechism. Thereby numbers have been induced to become earnest and devoted members of our Church. Such has not been stated here to be the results of the English system, and I hold that, though it is called "a system," it is no system at all-and it is no "system." A commission was held, before which was disclosed a large mass of the grossest ignorance and negligence amongst the population : then the government came forward and said to every Committee and Board at all interested in education, "Take this and this school under your charge, and for God's sake teach the people something." Now, that is not a "system" at all. If the same thing had been done in Ireland, and if, instead of breaking up all the Committees and Boards in Ireland that had been interested in education, and telling all the old worthies, some of whom are here to-night, that their occupation was gone-no wonder that we should be reminded by some of them of their old wars and grievances-if, I say, the government had paid the respect that was due to all these existing Boards and Societies, the same kind of respect that was shewn in England, all the while keeping steadily in view the system they intended to introduce, I believe there would have been, after a little, a centralization of the whole thing in Dublin, and all places would have derived, long since, the advantages of having the one true system of national education throughout the whole land. I do not believe that the truce which the clergy, availing themselves of the National system, enter into, is in any way an insult to the Bible. I should pray God for grace to lay down my life rather than do anything that would insult God's Holy Word. But I look upon the truce in a different aspect. It strikes me that the necessity of making such a truce is indicative of the profound reverence in which the people in this country treat the interpretation of the Bible that may be given by the teachers they believe to be properly qualified. So deep is the interest they ed, so profound their respect for religious truth-not like those in the

higher schools in India, who readily enough at any time read the Holy Scriptures for the mere purpose of enabling them to understand English literature.

LORD ORANMORE AND BROWNE :—I had no intention at all of troubling you when your time is so very valuable, and I shall make exceedingly few remarks, as I may observe that the very little I have to say will be as a layman; and in some measure the views of laymen on this subject are not as yet before this meeting. I think, as well as I remember, his lordship, the Bishop of Oxford, said that no clergyman could or should undertake the management or teaching of a school unless the whole of the doctrines which he thought right were taught in it. Well, I think that may be a very good position for a clergyman, and for such no doubt it was laid down. But if such a position as that were taken, I think the State could do nothing for education at all in this country. But his lordship said—and I sincerely believe that he wishes it-that he desired to gain information from the clergy of the Church of Ireland. Well, I would take the liberty of referring him, and calling the attention of others too, to Professor Nesbitt's speech on National Education, at the Belfast Social Science Meeting, and if he reads that carefully over, as I have done, I think he will be satisfied that it proves that so far as the secular education is concerned, nothing can be more successful than the National system of education which has been carried out here during the last forty years. That speech shews that, according to the religion of the children in every part of Ireland so in proportion is the attendance of the children of Ireland at those schools. There are, for instance, 2,400 National Schools attended by 24,000 children-Protestant children-that is, ten to each school on an average; and if these National Schools, scattered throughout the country, did not exist, how would it be possible for these children, to get any education at all? They would be isolated and altogether excluded from the education afforded by the State.

WEDNESDAY MORNING, 30th SEPTEMBER.

HIS GRACE THE PRESIDENT TOOK THE CHAIR AT 10 O'CLOCK.

THE PRESIDENT said :-Before I call upon the Dean of Cashel to open the very interesting subject which will occupy our morning's session to-day, there are one or two words which I wish to speak in reference to something which I said last night. Perhaps I expected too much of human nature when I asked you if by chance you should dissent from or disapprove of any word which was spoken, you should express that dissent or disapproval merely by your silence, and I apologized at the same time for the “bull”—expressing dissent by silence-which, however, having been myself born in this city, I had a good right to make. What I want now to ask you however is something a little different; I am told that yesterday there were one or two faint sounds heard; I did not myself catch them, but I have been told they were heard; which I will not describe, but which it is as well should not be heard within these walls during these meetings. I would ask you if you disapprove of anything and you wish to express your dissent from it, you should do so by simply saying "no." A "no" "no" simply expresses dissent from the thing spoken, the other sound expresses dislike of the person speaking; and I trust you do not desire, however you may differ from any speaker, to express hostility to himself. Hissing or sibilation is not a human utterance; and therefore it will be best that it be altogether abstained from here by us; and remembering the old adage of "a word to the wise," I will leave that matter in your hands and now call upon the Dean of Cashel to read the opening paper on this morning's subject.

CHURCH WORK AND LIFE IN IRELAND.

THE VERY REV. JOHN C. MACDONNELL, D.D., (Dean of Cashel) read the following paper:

The subject of "Church Work and Life in Ireland "is too wide for a single paper. The peculiarities of North, South, and West afford the grounds of a natural division of labour among those who treat of it. I mean, therefore, to restrict my observations to Leinster and Munster, in which the whole of my clerical life has been spent. I leave it to the speakers who are to follow me to treat of the Church work and life in the populous parishes of Ulster and the missionary districts of Connaught.