White, Wm. C., vice president, Alcoa Steamship Co., Inc., 17 Battery Place, New York 4, N. Y.

Whitney, Vernon L., Standard-Vacuum Oil Co., 26 Broadway, New York City.

Williams, A. N., president, the Western Union Telegraph Co., 60 Hudson Street, New York City.

Wolfram, Dr. Wm. H., 1505 Fountain Square Building, Cincannati, Ohio. Woodruff, R. W., president, Coca-Cola Co., Dupont Building, Wilmington,

Del.

Young, Henry N., Hamilton Rubber Manufacturing Co., Trenton, N. J. Zellers, John A., vice president, Remington Rand, Inc., 315 Fourth Avenue, New York City.

Mr. CHEVALIER. I have also brought for your information, the history of the association.

The CHAIRMAN. Without objection, the history of the American Asiatic Association will be received as committee exhibit A.

(Committee exhibit A was filed with the committee.)

Mr. CHEVALIER. May I mention the names of a few men who have added their moral support to the efforts of this Association? We have two honorary presidents-the Honorable W. Cameron Forbes and the Honorable Lloyd C. Griscom.

Our honorary members are Hon. Herbert Hoover, Hon. W. Cameron Forbes, Maj. General Frank H. McCoy, U. S. Army, Hon. Silas H. Strawn and Hon. Joseph C. Grew.

On March 16, 1944, the executive committee of the American Asiatic Association at New York passed a resolution. May I read it, sir?

The CHAIRMAN. Go ahead.

Mr. CHEVALIER. The resolution was as follows:

Proposed by Vernon L. Whitney, vice president, and seconded by Malcolm D. Simpson, at a meeting of the executive Committee of the American Asiatic Association, held at India House, New York, March 15, 1944, it was unanimously voted:

"Resolved, That the executive committee of the American Asiatic Association recommends to the Congress of the United States that the United States immigration laws be so amended that the people of India may be admitted to the United States on a quota basis similar to that for citizens of other countries. The association has studied this problem for many years and has the feeling that this is an act of justice long due to the Indian people." Reported to the meeting by the subcommittee.

ROBERT M. FIELD.
G. ELLSWORTH HUGGINS.
VERNON L. WHITNEY.

I shall take only 4 or 5 minutes more of your time, sir.

Mr. Dodge, with his long experience in business with India, will discuss the economic phase of this question. I want to discuss the personal and cultural phases.

Thirty years ago when I was traveling in India I met Mr. Dodge. Every American in the Far East knows about Mr. Dodge and DodgeSeymour. I have treasured that friendship all these years. We are, of course, happy to have him as a strong member of our association. I want to speak to you a moment about a gentleman of India, Sadar Hardit Singh Malik.

Mr. ALLEN. Would the gentleman let me ask him one question at this particular point?

Mr. CHEVALIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. ALLEN. You spoke before of a membership of about 150 in your organization, the American Asiatic Association. About how many of those have been in India or lived in India, traveled in India?

Mr. CHEVALIER. I should say about 25 of them have lived in India a sufficient number of years to make us consider them valid advisers regarding questions concerning India.

Mr. ALLEN. Have most of them traveled in India?

Mr. CHEVALIER. Yes, sir. Sadar Hardit Singh Malik is a descendant of the Punja's. He comes of an old Indian family, in fact, a family that has a name crusted with honors of centuries in the history of India. At the age of 19, Sadar Malik became a British ace, flying in the Royal Flying Corps, in World War 1. He went to Oxford. He stood No. 1 on Indian study. He was captain of the tennis team of Oxford University. He was the champion golfer of Oxford University.

He went into the Indian Government service. He rates as an I. C. S. He came to New York 6 years ago as the Indian Government Trade Commissioner. May I say that a few days after he landed, he played golf and broke par for the course at Wykygl— The CHAIRMAN. We have some good golfers, too.

Mr. CHEVALIER. He went as a delegate to the conference at White Sulphur Springs. There they have a great resort hotel. Sadar Malik played the tennis professional there and defeated him. He played the golf pro and defeated him. The result was that Fortune magazine printed his cartoon as an Indian with many arms. hand had some kind of a sporting implement in it.

Each

I am not speaking of his achievements as an athlete because they are tremendously important. The caliber and character of the man, however, are important. I am not saying anything that you gentlemen may not easily check, because Sadar Malik was very well known in New York, and Washington, as well.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, he is one out of 390,000,000.

Mr. CHEVALIER. One out of 390,000,000, sir.

Mr. ALLEN. I was wondering.

Mr. CHEVALIER. Well, there are many gentlemen in this room with distinguished records in war and in peace. I believe not one of them would consider himself superior to Sadar Malik.

The CHAIRMAN. I was not questioning his ability in all of the things you said. Let us get on with the hearing.

Mr. CHEVALIER. Yes, sir. I want to tell you a short story which will indicate to a certain degree the flowering of Indian culture, so that you may measure whether those minds are equal to ours or not. There is an ancient Persian story. It is centuries old. Of course I know Persia, and I know India, but the intellectual culture of southern Asia has a certain genius in common. You may judge for yourselves regarding this story, gentlemen.

Centuries ago when Persia was the center of the known world, the Shah decided to make his capital, Tehran, not only the center of physical activities of many kinds, but also the center of art and culture. So he caused to be erected outside the walls of his city a white marble palace, circular in form. And in it he placed 99 seats. Then he caused messengers to be sent throughout his empire, inviting the wise men of the day, artists, scientists, sculptors, and scholars to come and form a council of wise men.

Tehran was the center of the then known world, in the Mediterranean Basin. Communication was slow. It took many months

for the messengers to reach the wise men, and for them to gather at Tehran. Finally all the invited 99 wise men arrived, and entered the white marble palace for the first conference, and the great bronze gates were closed.

No sooner were the great bronze gates closed than a horseman appeared, spurring across the plain, and pulled up at the great bronze gates, covered with dust, having come in great haste from a far country. He asked the guards whether that was the council of wise men, and if so, he craved admittance. The guards told him all the invited 99 wise men had arrived and had entered the great white marble palace for the first conference, and the great bronze gates were closed.

The traveler insisted that if the wise men knew he were there, they would gladly admit him. He insisted so strongly that the captain of the guards consented to send his name inside. The wise men sent out their answer. It was carried by a slave, and consisted of a golden salver, and upon the golden salver there was a golden bowl filled with water. The bowl was so full of water that it could not hold a single drop more. And there was the answer of the wise men.

The traveler turned to a rose bush close by and plucked a single -petal, which he dropped upon the top of the water. The rose petal was so light it floated there, without disturbing a single drop of water. He told the slave to carry the golden bowl back into the council hall. And when the wise men saw the rose petal floating upon the top of the water in the golden bowl, they caused the great bronze gates to be opened wide, and admitted the traveler, into their midst.

And that was the beginning of the 100 wise men of the East. And the name of the traveler was Omar Khayyam.

Gentlemen, tha story is a rose petal to which the mind of southern Asia has arisen, and that is the reason we feel those people are entitled to come here on the basis of full equality.

The CHAIRMAN. Have you finished?

Mr. CHEVALIER. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you. Call your next witness, Mr. Celler. Mr. CELLER. I would like to present Mr. V. A. Dodge, president of Dodge & Seymour, New York.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Dodge.

STATEMENT OF V. A. DODGE, PRESIDENT, DODGE & SEYMOUR,

NEW YORK, N. Y.

Mr. DODGE. Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, I am going to talk to you strictly from the standpoint of a businessman. was born and raised in Burlington, Iowa. I went to New York when I was 17, and at the age of 21 I went to India. That was in November 1897. I have been there some 15 or 16 times since that, the last time in 1936.

I have never lived permanently in India. My visits, which were on business, have been for from 4 months to 6 months, one of 18 months. I have gone through the period before the war. Since the war I have been associating with Indian businessmen and industrialists, not politicians.

I have had the opportunity during those years to see the sons and the nephews of the men with whom I was doing business grow into the

business. I have seen their education, their mentalities, and learned their views. I have heard them discuss British goods, German goods, the influx of Japanese goods.

They have always been most kindly to me, and I think to every other American businessman who has gone out there. We could come in when we wanted to, we could stay as long as we liked, and we could go out when we pleased. They had that feeling which I think Dr. Kirk or someone expressed, that they were discriminated against because they were brown skinned or black people.

I used to say to some of my good customers: "Why don't you come to the United States? I come here and show you fine tools, fine machines, stuff you can build your country up with, because after all, you are merchants. You are the people to build up your country. It is not by talking, it is by having merchandise and goods here that have been developed in the western countries, that is going to bring up you people. Why don't you go to America?"

Mr. ALLEN. May I ask you a question without interrupting your trend of thought?

Mr. DODGE. Yes, sir.

Mr. ALLEN. Speaking about your entering India freely, I wonder if the requirements of entry there are not fixed by the British Government? I am asking purely for information.

Mr. DODGE. They are.

Mr. ALLEN. In other words, India has nothing to do with it. The British Government handles it?

Mr. DODGE. When you obtain a passport from the State Department, previous to that you get a visa by the British counsul in New York good in any British territory for a period of 2 years.

Mr. ALLEN. It cannot be said that the Indians have anything to do with it?

Mr. DODGE. In that respect, you are correct.

The CHAIRMAN. You may proceed.

Mr. DODGE. What I particularly wish to point out is that I felt this feeling of discrimination, this feeling of inferiority that the Indian merchants had. Mind you, I am talking about the merchant class, and the industrialists-that feeling they had, that they could not come over here, that they were not wanted.

I said "You can come over on a temporary passport." They said: "That is like a man out of jail on probation. We do not want to come that way. No, we won't come.' And they did not come. If you take the records and see how many businessmen came to the United States from India since 1922, after World War 1, you will find the number is very, very small, those who came here for business reasons. They should have come.

I want to say further that this question of immigration in this country has been one, as far as I can see-I have been out of the country so much, because I have covered China, the Philippines, Java, the Dutch Indies, that I have not followed it too closely, many things that have happened here, but my feeling is that immigration restrictions have been aimed at the prevention of an influx of people who would interfere with labor in this country.

So far as I can see from my observation, the Chinese migratedyou will find them all through the East Indies, in the Philippines, in many countries. You will find very few Indians. The Indian loves

his home. He realizes, more in recent years, that India is a large country, with wonderful sources of raw materials, that it can lift itself up by its boot straps and do things for its people. It must do it.

Only 10 percent of the people of India make their living in industry. Eighty percent of them are farmers, living in the country, and that is where the poverty and squalor exist. But there is now a movement endorsed by the Government of India and prominent industrialists and financiers, who were going to do things for India. Agriculture, in my opinion, is the first thing to be developed, to get people up to a standard of living where they can live properly. Industry will be developed. There is a very large plan for industrialization. In that respect the United States should profit, and naturally other countries will also.

Mr. ARNOLD. May I interrupt you one moment?

Mr. DODGE. Yes, sir.

Mr. ARNOLD. Will the British allow our manufacturers to compete against them in shipping goods to india?

Mr. DODGE. Well, there are conditions at the present time, war conditions, which do not permit American goods to go as freely to India as they have in the past, but what will happen in the future, we do not know. Maybe that will depend upon Congress.

Mr. MASON. Along that line, before the war and before these unprecedented conditions existed, you had no difficulties in India in selling your goods against your British competitors, or anyone else, did you?

Mr. DODGE. Not at all. The British developed a preferential tariff against us, of 5 to 10 percent on some items.

Mr. MASON. That you had to meet and overcome?

Mr. DODGE. We had to meet it. In our own business, and the business of many others, we tried to find things that were made in the United States which could not be made in England as well, made at a more favorable price that would sell as against the inferior article. I believe we have handled goods made in the State of every one of you Congressmen. I think all of your States through us and others have been shipping goods to India.

Mr. ALLEN. Did you handle American goods exclusively?
Mr. DODGE. Exclusively. Nothing else.

Mr. ALLEN. How many places of business did you have?

Mr. DODGE. We had five offices in India, Bombay, Karachi, Lahore, Delhi, Calcutta, and Madras.

Mr. ARNOLD. Did you find any Missouri mules out there? Mr. DODGE. I have known of them being shipped to Karachi. Mr. ALLEN. I am interested in your ability to compete, considering our high standard of living here and the low standard of living in India, which I understand is very low. I am interested in your ability to compete in prices over there against a differential tariff.

Mr. DODGE. Well, we were able to do it, and we would be quite satisfied if the same basis is reestablished after the war. The British will possibly have some advantages. We do not know what they will be. If we are on as favorable a basis as before, we believe we Americans who have worked in the business will get our share.

Mr. ALLEN. It is up to the British Government to decide on what terms you bring your goods in?