up machinery that had been purchased in Germany for use in this country and to train Americans to operate those machines.

Mr. ESTERLY. But they are not doing that?

Mr. HUSBAND. We understand they are not.

Mr. ESTERLY. They continue to bring in men under that guise all the time, Ten, in your judgment, should be the maximum allowed to each importer or manufacturer in New York City who imports these machines, as I understand? Is that your view?

Mr. HUSBAND. No; you do not understand me. I do not mean to say what would be a proper limit in this connection. In some cases 1 would be all that should be allowed or would be necessary, and, again, there might be a case where 10 would be necessary.

Mr. ESTERLY. In the particular case to which I have just referred,. is not 42 of these men, in your opinion, a rather large number? Mr. HUSBAND. We think it is.

Mr. ESTERLY. How many such men, in your opinion, should those people be allowed under this exemption?

Mr. HUSBAND. I don't know. I would have to know the extent of the activities for which it was desired to bring these men here before I could judge as to the number needed to carry on those activities.

Mr. ESTERLY. Would the fact that such a practice would injure established concerns in the United States be any reflection so far as the Department of Labor is concerned?

Mr. HUSBAND. That is coupled, I think, with the importation of machinery to compete with American machinery. I believe that is the case you have in mind.

Mr. ESTERLY. Yes; that is right.

Mr. HUSBAND. If the importers of the machinery would injure American industry, then certainly the importation of men to set up and operate that machinery would have a part in inflicting that injury, of course.

Mr. ESTERLY. Could that be construed as dumping?

Mr. HUSBAND. It might be construed as dumping the machinery, but I think that under the long-established practice an intricate machine purchased in some foreign country for use in the United States is entitled to have somebody come with it and be admitted here for the purpose of erecting it and starting it in operation. That has been the uniform practice.

Mr. FREE. As a matter of fact all our textile machinery originated in Europe, did it not, especially for the silk industry?

Mr. HUSBAND. I can't say as to that. I know that in one branch of that industry, namely, lace making, the machines were brought from Europe. There have been several others. Silk hosiery is the one uppermost at the present time.

Mr. SCHNEIDER. Just how and under what law do you bring those men in at the present time?

Mr. HUSBAND. In either case, whether coming for permanent or temporary purposes, they are brought in under a wavier of the alien contract labor law, which provides that skilled labor may be imported if labor of like kind unemployed can not be had in this country.

Mr. SCHNEIDER. Do I understand you to say that men may come here under a waiver of the alien contract labor law either for permanent or temporary purposes?

Mr. HUSBAND. If the contract labor law is waived, it is waived as to a temporary or permanent entry, whichever the demand may be. Mr. SCHNEIDER. Can it be waived under the act of 1917 for skilled mechanics and workmen?

Mr. HUSBAND. Yes.

Mr. SCHNEIDER. What about the quota provisions of the immigration act of 1924?

Mr. HUSBAND. They must come within the quota if the admission is for permanent residence. A nonimmigrant may be admitted under the provisions of section 32 of the act of 1924, which permits the temporary admission of aliens coming for temporary business.

Mr. SCHNEIDER. But not to perform labor or work for wages? You refer to pleasure and business purposes, do you not? Do you construe the alien contract labor clause of the act of 1917 not to conflict with the immigration act of 1924?

Mr. HUSBAND. We have construed the admission of an individual in whose behalf the alien contract labor law was waived as eligible to admission temporarily for business under the immigration act of 1924.

Mr. FREE. Perhaps I can direct your attention, Mr. Schneider, to just what you desire. The immigration act of February 5, 1917, provides:

That skilled labor, if otherwise admissible, may be imported if labor of like kind unemployed can not be found in this country, and the question of the necessity of importing such skilled labor in any particular instance may be determined by the Secretary of Labor upon the application of any person interested, such application to be made before such importation, and such determination by the Secretary of Labor to be reached after a full hearing and an investigation into the facts of the case. * * *

Mr. SCHNEIDER. Are they coming in for permanent residence? I am asking the Secretary for an interpretation of what he read, to learn whether aliens may come in under the clause of the act of February 5, 1917, for permanent residence.

Mr. HUSBAND. They come in permanently or temporarily. When the act of 1917 was put through there was no limit to the number that might come here under those circumstances.

Mr. SCHNEIDER. But does not the fact that there is a quota provision in the immigration act of 1924 preclude them from coming here for permanent residence?

Mr. Box. If they come within the quota they can come under that provision.

Mr. HUSBAND. There is no waiver of the quota.

Mr. SCHNEIDER. Why have an alien contract labor clause in the act if aliens may come in that way?

Mr. Box. The alien contract labor law prohibits anybody coming to accept contract work, and this is an exception to that law. Otherwise every man coming here under contract would be barred under the act of 1917 and could not be admitted because of the said act. Mr. RUTHERFORD. What effort, if any, was made by the Department of Labor to determine whether or not men qualified to do the work in question could be found within the United States?

Mr. HUSBAND. If it is a case of skilled labor, an investigation is always conducted with a view to determining whether labor of like kind unemployed can be found within the United States.

Mr. RUTHERFORD. How is that investigation made? Does the representative of the department go to the man who makes application for that kind of labor?

Mr. HUSBAND. Sometimes we go to the man who makes the application for entry of this class of labor. We try to determine what effort has been made to get Americans for the work, what wages the employer pays, and get his explanation of why he is unable to get skilled labor he desires in the United States. Then we go to those engaged in such labor to determine whether such labor is in fact available here. We have applications from many employers that do not need any particular investigation, because we know without investigation that labor of the kind desired could be found if the employers would pay the wages ordinarily paid to such labor.

Mr. TAYLOR. It was my understanding that the testimony of Mr. Husband this morning was to be a showing as to the need for this particular legislation and to show the demands for this particular labor.

Mr. SCHNEIDER. We are trying to learn how the department is now admitting these people for which they claim there is a special demand because the supply is not available in the United Statesunder what law and whether there is a need for a change in that law to permit these foreigners to come here. Otherwise we would not have the bill before us.

Mr. TAYLOR. I would say that the demand has not been shown. I had thought Mr. Husband would give us that.

Mr. Box. What are you finding with respect to that, Mr. Husband? Mr. HUSBAND. The number is not large, as immigration goes, but there are legitimate needs, it seems to us, and I think it would appeal to us as a perfectly legitimate demand for labor or the services of some men such as chemists and other scientists in all labor that is needed in this country; and the point is that if we need, actually need, one of that character, whatever it may be, he has to take his place at the end of a long waiting list of immigrants. He is not exempted from the quota law, and before his name is reached we are admitting considerable numbers of people for whom there is no demand in this country.

Mr. ESTERLY. Is that always the case? Are the experts always at the end of the list?

Mr. HUSBAND. Their relative place on the list is determined by the date of applications.

Mr. ESTERLY. Would it appear that these manufacturers that want this foreign labor should go around a little in advance and not wait till the actual need arises? Would it not be good business to look ahead and plan on this thing?

Mr. HUSBAND. I suppose we could all look ahead and say that we will need a new shirt next year, for instance, but we do not do it. Mr. ESTERLY. That is not good business.

Mr. JENKINS. You say the number is not large. Perhaps you desire to make a more definite answer than that. Can you not give us some kind of estimate in regard to this matter?

Mr. HUSBAND. I can not give you an estimate of the number of cases involving the alien contract labor waiver. It would be limited to a few thousand.

Mr. JENKINS. As I understand, section 3 of the act of 1917 is the section that provides against contract labor, but there are in it two or three exceptions, one being the proviso read by Mr. Free which says that if like labor is not employed in the United States and can not be found here, aliens may be admitted to do the work. I gathered from your statement that you do admit people under that law? Mr. HUSBAND. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENKINS. For temporary and permanent residence?
Mr. HUSBAND. Yes.

Mr. JENKINS. If you do that, then why any change in the law? Mr. HUSBAND. It is the purpose of Mr. Free's bill it does not concern their admissibility. It concerns facilitating their admission and giving them a precedence in point of time in connection with admission, as against those for whom there is no actual demand.

Mr. JENKINS. If you can admit them now for permanent residence, of course, that does not mean you admit them for purposes of acquiring citizenship, does it?

Mr. HUSBAND. Yes.

Mr. JENKINS. If they can come for permanent residence and are entitled to make application for United States citizenship, what is the necessity of the Free bill?

Mr. HUSBAND. The point to which we go back is this-in this case I read from the report of the Secretary of Labor I will be more specific. There is a German manufacturer who wanted to transfer his factory to the Commonwealth of Massachusetts. I do not remember the exact article he was manufacturing, but the article was not one produced in the United States, being imported from Germany. This manufacturer became dissatisfied because of exorbitant taxation and other conditions in Germany and he desired to bring his machinery and factory and capital and family to the United States. I think he had three skilled workers and their families that he desired to bring with him. He was ready to buy an abandoned plant in Massachusetts, install his own machinery, and begin the manufacture of the particular article, which I have forgotten, he was interested in, employing American labor. I may say in passing that opportunities for the employment of American labor in that particular community were sorely needed. He was ready to come here. The chamber of commerce wanted him to come. The best we could do for him was tell him to apply for a visa and have the other members of his group apply We told him that, according to our best information, it would be two years before he might come here with a visa. Meanwhile we were admitting coal miners from the Ruhr Valley.

Mr. JENKINS. Why not admit him under this law?

Mr. HUSBAND. He had to wait for his turn to get a visa under the quota act.

Mr. JENKINS. Why, if he was actually needed here?

Mr. HUSBAND. The quota law establishes the principle of first come first served.

Mr. JENKINS. How do you admit these men that the gentleman talked about a little while ago?

Mr. HUSBAND. They were admitted temporarily, but this German manufacturer desired to come here for permanent residence.

Mr. JENKINS. Then, is it true that everybody who is admitted to the United States now must come temporarily under this section?

Mr. HUSBAND. No; not if they can come within the quota.

Mr. JENKINS. If they come within the quota, you have nothing to do with it?

Mr. HUSBAND. No.

Mr. JENKINS. How are you admitting them under this section?

Mr. HUSBAND. A great many of them wait for their turn, if they do not get discouraged.

Mr. JENKINS. If a man comes within the quota, and is otherwise admissible, he doesn't have to ask your department anything? Mr. HUSBAND. If he is a contract laborer.

Mr. Box. The contract labor law applies to those under the quota. Mr. JENKINS. He could easily obviate that restriction. Why would he have to say he was coming here under contract to work? He could easily thwart that provision.

Mr. HUSBAND. That is not so easily done. We reject as alien contract laborers a great many people who hold visas.

Mr. FREE. Is there not another point that has not been mentioned, namely, in many instances these men might come in under the section of the Burnett law, but their families could not come with them, and they will not leave their families and minor children on the other side? One of the provisions in my bill is that the wives and minor children may accompany the husbands and fathers.

Mr. HUSBAND. They should share the same privilege?

Mr. FREE. Yes.

Mr. SCHNEIDER. Under the Burnett Act of 1917 the alien when coming here under the provisions of the alien contract labor law could bring his wife and minor children, but since the enactment of the immigration act of 1924 he is precluded from bringing them here when issued a permit for a temporary stay.

Mr. HUSBAND. They might bring their wives and children in under the Burnett bill. There was no necessity for waiving the alien contract labor law in favor of families.

Mr. JENKINS. When people come to this country two things are involved, namely, to better their own condition and to become United States citizens. If a man comes in under the Free bill, passing all the requirements, he does not have to become a citizen. What are

we going to do about it?

Mr. HUSBAND. We can't do anything about it. We can't put him out of the country for that reason.

Mr. SCHNEIDER. He came in as a technician. He came for the purpose of seeking lucrative employment and he may have had no intention whatsoever of ever becoming a citizen of the United States. He comes here for the money there is in it. As soon as he is discharged or probably works for 20 years and never becomes a citizen of the United States, he goes back to the other side, whereas if he comes here voluntarily without having a contract for his labor, he is much more apt to stay here and become a citizen.

Mr. DICKSTEIN. We have allowed Great Britain the greater part of the immigration quota. Of the 150,000 aliens allowed to come here about 80,000 come from Great Britain and of them only about 40 per cent become citizens of the United States.

Mr. ESTERLY. Let us change that.

Mr. SCHNEIDER. I should like to ask about another phase of immigration, namely, the admittance of those who come on temporary