Mr. HOUSTON. No; I think we are living in a different day. As a matter of fact, we have been talking about this now for 3 years and there has been no violence.

Mr. POWELL. If any violence occurs in any way I am sure you will let us learn about it as quickly as possible, so we can take the proper steps through the Government agencies, the FBI, and so forth.

Mr. HOUSTON. I will certainly do that, Mr. Chairman, but I would like to say the American people are now of a different temperament. If you recall the restrictive-covenant cases, there has been only one instance of violence; in the education cases there has been absolutely no instance of violence. I think we are in a different trend, and I think America is ready for abolition of the discriminatory practices. Mr. POWELL. Mr. McBride, is there anything you would like to add? Mr. MCBRIDE. All I want to say is that I believe the hiring of firemen is a prerogative the railroad companies have insisted belongs to them.

Mr. HOUSTON. Mr. Chairman, while hiring is a prerogative of the railroad nevertheless down on the ground the master mechanic, the roundhouse foremen will say to the local chairman of the brotherhood lodge, "Bring me so many men," so that, as a matter of fact, hiring is actually assisted in by the brotherhoods unofficially.

Mr. MCBRIDE. That is news to me. I don't think that is true. In my 46 years' experience I never heard that our organization had the authority to furnish the men to be employed as locomotive firemen. Mr. HOUSTON. May I ask the witness how he can argue that the brotherhood has no interest or voice about hiring when the fact is that, when management proposed to hire Negroes, the brotherhood proposed to strike.

Mr. POWELL. Through the Chairman, Mr. Houston would like to ask if the railroads proposed to hire Negroes then why was it that the brotherhoods proposed to strike, if they have nothing to do with the hiring?

Mr. MCBRIDE. The situation that he is speaking of is just one particular instance. What I had in mind was the general, over-all hiring of locomotive firemen. I have no knowledge that the railroad companies consult us or consult our organizations to hire these men.

Mr. POWELL. In these particular instances, on the Atlantic Coast Line and the other railroads, the Chattanooga Railroad and Baltimore & Ohio, when the railroads were going to employ Negroes the brotherhood said they would strike if they employed them.

Mr. MCBRIDE. Did the brotherhoods take a strike vote?

Mr. POWELL. They threatened to.

Mr. HOUSTON. They did take it on the Coast Line in 1942.

Mr. POWELL. In 1942 the Atlantic Coast Line took a strike vote?
Mr. HOUSTON. Yes.

Mr. POWELL. What was the vote?

Mr. HOUSTON. I don't know what was the vote, but I know they took a strike vote under Thad Lee as general chairman.

Mr. POWELL. The Atlantic Coast Line did take a strike vote.

Mr. MCBRIDE. Nine years ago there was a jurisdictional dispute on the Atlantic & West Point, there were approximately 30 Negro firemen involved, of which the majority voted for the Brotherhood of Locomotive Firemen and Enginemen to represent them. Naturally when I

come up here and hear what sounds like antagonism, I did not know that there was anything of that kind existing.

Mr. POWELL. I do not know that this is antagonism.

Mr. MCBRIDE. That is the feeling I get.

Mr. POWELL. If there is antagonism, frankly, against any organization, whether it is a union or otherwise, it is because the Constitution is "for whites only."

Mr. MCBRIDE. Every time we get an increase in pay we include every man whether a colored man or not.

Mr. POWELL. That is not the question before us. The question is whether the Negro is displaced by whites.

Mr. MCBRIDE. I believe you have my views on the question of seniority. The senior fireman should have the preference to assignments if qualified.

Mr. BURKE. You heard the questions I asked in regard to the seniority system and how it operates. Were the answers substantially the way you understand?

Mr. MCBRIDE. Congressman Burke, on many railroads they have different systems of seniority rights. It is a matter for the men themselves to handle. I might cite the New York, Ontario & Western Railroad; they had a strike the other day. On that railroad they have three seniority districts. The firemen have what they call system of seniority. When they are promoted to engineer they give them 30 days to decide whether they shall be assigned to the northern division exclusively or southern exclusively, or the Scranton division.

Mr. BURKE. The seniority counts from the first day?

Mr. MCBRIDE. That is right. That is a matter that they just take care of themselves.

Mr. BURKE. Well, this division or district seniority is not a universal practice on all railroads, is it?

Mr. MCBRIDE. No. Some men prefer a divisional seniority to what they call a system seniority, because the system seniority, may cover many miles of territory and, in the event of a depression, men would be required to go many miles from home to exercise their seniority. If they are on a 150 mileage division and are displaced they can go to any place on that division where their seniority would entitle them to have a job.

Mr. BURKE. Do you find that there are more division seniority systems in operation than the other systems?

Mr. MCBRIDE. From my experience, the question of voting for what seniority you will have, whether it is district or system, has never been a question of discrimination, it is a question of which system the men prefer.

Mr. POWELL. I would like to say it is now 4:30 and the committee will adjourn until tomorrow at 10 when we will hear the chairman of the State FEPC organization of New York and Massachusetts, and tomorrow at 2 o'clock we will hear the testimony of the representatives of the two remaining brotherhoods.

I would like, before the committee adjourns, to have placed in the record the statement of the Honorable Edward deGraffenried, of Alabama, a memorandum on discrimination against Negro railway workers in World War I and World War II, and memorandums on discriminations against Negro railway workers by the Brotherhood of Railroad Trainmen and the Brotherhood of Locomotive Firemen and Enginemen.

(The matters referred to are as follows:)

STATEMENT OF HON. EDWARD DEGRAFFENRIED, A REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF ALABAMA

On behalf of the people of my congressional district, of my State, and of my section of the country, I wish to ask the committee to include in H. R. 4453 a provision which would allow the States to choose for themselves with regard to the prohibition of descrimination in employment because of race, color, religion, or national origin.

There is at present no law requiring an employer to hire any applicant merely because his eduction and experience qualify him on paper for the job he is seeking. With the exception of cases involving veterans preference, an employer is free to choose an employee from a number of equally qualified persons, judging on the basis of temperament, personality, manner, or general potential capacity for getting along with fellow workers. This freedom of the employer to choose employees without the supervision of the Federal Government is definitely a democratic principal and it should be preserved.

As part of its platform for the 1948 Presidential election the Communist Party demanded "a national FEPC law, to be vigorously and fully enforced."

While there is racial inequality between Negroes and whites in the South, there is no acute problem resulting therefrom. Each race has its own place in our culture and the two have lived together with remarkably little dissension. We can continue to live together in harmony if we are left alone, but neither race is ready for so drastic and sudden a change in the relationship which has existed and worked for so many years. Outside interference can only, at best, bring to a head a problem which will surely solve itself in time without the ill feeling and resentment which is bound to come if the issue is forced by the enactment of the Federal Fair Employment Practices Act.

The following is a quotation from a letter which I have received from Davis Lee, Negro publisher of the Telegram newspapers: "As a Negro, naturally I want to see my race enjoy every right, every privilege, and every opportunity enjoyed by every other American, but I am convinced by experience and keen observation that he is acquiring these privileges, opportunities, and rights as he is capable of utilizing them, and that to enact such drastic legislation now would precipitate the very thing which we are seeking to avoid, racial conflict."

MEMORANDUM ON DISCRIMINATION AGAINST NEGRO RAILWAY WORKERS IN WORLD WAR I AND WORLD WAR II

Before World War I, the Big Four brotherhoods (Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers, Brotherhood of Locomotive Firemen and Enginemen, Brotherhood of Railroad Trainmen, and Order of Railway Conductors) tried to drive Negro firemen and trainmen off the railroads under the excuse that Negroes were working for substandard wages, and consequently held down wages for whites and hindered unionization.

1918-Equalization of wages. On May 25, 1918, the United States Railroad Administration issued General Order No. 27, under which article VI equalized wages for Negro and white train and engine service employees:

"ARTICLE VI.-COLORED FIREMEN, TRAINMEN, AND SWITCHMEN

"Effective June 1, 1918, colored men employed as firemen, trainmen, and switchmen shall be paid the same rates of wages as are paid white men in the same capacities.

"Back pay for period January 1, to May 31, 1918, will be based only upon the increases provided in article II of this order for such positions. Back payments will not apply to the further increased rate made effective by this article.” 1918-Further clarification of equal-wage scale.-Some question arose whether the Negro train porter who did all the head-end braking work on passenger trains, handled mail and baggage, cleaned cars en route and assisted in loading and unloading passengers for mere-pittance wages, was included in the wage-equalization scheme under General Order No. 27, article VI above, as a trainman.

To set all doubts at rest, on December 2, 1918, the United States Railroad Administration issued supplement 12 to General Order No. 27 setting up certain functional tests for classification as brakeman and equalizing wages.

"SUPPLEMENT NO. 12 TO GENERAL ORDER NO. 27

"To carry out the intent of article VI of General Order No. 27 and retroactive to June 1, 1918, it is ordered:

"1. Employees in a passenger-train crew, except conductor, collector, and baggagemaster, qualified and regularly required to perform the following duties, will be designated as passenger brakemen or flagmen and paid accordingly :

"(a) Inspect cars and test signal and brake apparatus for the safety of train movement.

"(b) Use hand and lamp signals for the protection and movement of trains. "(c) Open and close switches.

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(d) Couple and uncouple cars and engines and the hose and chain attachments thereof.

"(e) Compare watches when required by rule.

"2. Where white brakemen are not employed, the compensation and overtime rule for colored brakemen shall be the same, for both passenger and freight service, as for the same positions on the minimum paid contiguous road.

"3. This order shall not curtail the duties of employees heretofore classed as train porters.

"4. This order shall not infringe upon the seniority rights of white trainmen. "W. G. MCADOO,

"Director General of Railroads."

1919. Further attempts to drive Negroes out of service.-After equalization of wages and reclassification of the Negro "train porters" as passenger brakemen the unions, instead of dropping the fight against the Negro train and engine workers, intensified the fight to take away their jobs, forcing the United States Railroad Administration April 22, 1919, to issue supplement No. 20 to General Order No. 27.

"UNITED STATES RAILROAD ADMINISTRATION,

"Washington, April 22, 1919.

"SUPPLEMENT NO. 20 TO GENERAL ORDER NO. 27-INTERPRETATION OF ALL WAGE ORDERS ISSUED BY THE DIRECTOR GENERAL

"From time to time my attention has been called to claims made by employees that a wage order or supplement thereto has established jurisdiction for certain organizations of employees over all employees named therein.

"In some instances members of certain organizations of employees have demanded the removal of employees, some of whom have served many years in such positions, the demand being based upon the belief that the classification of employees named in certain supplements or wage orders established rights to make such demands.

"No wage order or supplement thereto issued by the Director General has any such intent. These orders simply govern wages and working conditions of the employees found in such positions, and no employees will be removed from the service because of the language of any wage order or supplement thereto.

"Questions of jurisdiction arising between organizations of employees must be adjusted between themselves, as the Director General has not and will not become involved in jurisdictional disputes between organizations of employees. "WALKER D. HINES,

"Director General of Railroads."

[World War I]

[Source: Locomotive Firemen's Magazine, August 15, 1917, pp. 11-12, LC HD 6350, R35, B 8, vol. 63]

RAILROADS EAGER TO EMPLOY NEGROES IN TRAIN SERVICE.

The following important circular on this question was issued August 9, 1917, by Acting President Shea to all general and local chairmen and recording secretaries of subordinate lodges.

During the early part of June 1917 information reached the international president that the Baltimore & Ohio Railroad management contemplated employing Negro firemen. It was stated the company was importing Negroes from the South under contract for this purpose.

President Carter, before going away on his leave of absence, prepared an article on this question, which appeared in the June 15 issue of the magazine, and which explains the situation in detail and very clearly shows the purpose of this movement. We trust every member of this brotherhood has read this acticle-if not, they should do so in order to learn for themselves the purpose of the railroads in their desire to employ Negroes as firemen on roads where they are not now employed.

While in New York during the month of July, meeting with the Commission of Eight, I received information to the effect that the Baltimore & Ohio Railroad had called some of our local chairmen to ascertain the attitude of this brotherhood in the event Negroes were employed to fire engines. Upon receiving this information, I wired General Chairman A. B. Miller, of the Baltimore & Ohio Railroad, the following:

"Have just been advised that the Baltimore & Ohio roundhouse foreman at Cleveland approached local chairman, lodge 10, relative to his attitude in event Negro firemen were placed on locomotives as firemen. Suggest that you immediately file a vigorous protest with your general manager against the employment of Negro firemen and you shall have the support of this organization to prevent the advent of Negro firemen on your road. Insist upon an early reply and advise me. Grand Chief Engineer Stone is taking the matter up with his chairman." Realizing the seriousness of the situation and feeling that this matter involved the Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers, I conferred with Grand Chief Engineer Stone, who was present in New York as a member of the Commission of Eight, and he wired his general chairman, as follows:

"Understand Baltimore & Ohio men are being canvassed at Cleveland regarding their attitude toward the placing of Negro firemen on engines. Take necessary steps to investigate; if found correct, promptly file protest with management. Until further advised men will be supported in refusing to take them out."

As a result of the protest of the general chairman of the B. of L. E. and B. of L. F. and E. against the employment of Negroes as firemen, the company relieves several Negro firemen they had employed in the Pittsburgh district, and informed the chairman that it would not be the policy of the Baltimore & Ohio Railroad to employ this class of labor.

Believing there were other railroads that might employ Negro firemen, the advisory board of the Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers, in session at Cleveland, took action on the question, and I received a letter from Grand Chief Engineer Stone showing the action taken as follows:

"Resolved, That it will be the policy of the B. of L. E. that Negroes will not be permitted to fire locomotives on any railroad that does not now employ them as such, and will request that on such roads as do now employ them, that they be confined to the districts as defined for them at the present time, and that the percentage of Negro firemen on divisions where they are employed jointly with write firemen be not increased."

To the foregoing I replied, in part, as follows:

"This will acknowledge receipt of your letter of the 2d instant with the enclosed copy of letter addressed jointly to Brothers Sheppard and Dodge and myself which embodies resolutions adopted by your advisory board on July 26 defining the position of the Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers regarding the employment of Negro firemen on railroads where white firemen are now exclusively employed, also on roads where it is now the practice to employ a certain percentage of Negro firemen jointly with white firemen.

"Let me say at the outset that the action taken by your organization is highly commendable and keenly appreciated by the Brotherhood of Locomotive Firemen and Enginemen, and to accomplish the end as outlined in the resolutions your organization will have the heartiest cooperation of the B. of L. F. and E.”

Since the adjustment of this question on the Baltimore & Ohio Railroad I received a communication from the general chairman of the New York, New Haven & Hartford Railroad advising that officials of that company were stating to our members that in all probability it would be necessary to employe Negroes as firemen and asking what the policy of this brotherhood would be in the event this class of labor was employed to which I replied by wire as follows:

"Have your letter regarding employment of Negro firemen on New Haven Railroad. You should take this matter up immediately with general manager and file vigorous protest against employment of Negro firemen and you will have the support of this organization to prevent the advent of this class of labor on your road, and to accomplish this end our members will be supported in refusing to work when Negroes are employed as firemen.”