light on the very dangerous situation, and I personally appreciate them very much. Now we are going to go to questions, and I am going to plead with the Members to be succinct. There is no rule or regulation requiring you to ask a question. [Laughter.] I would like to relieve this panel and get through our next panel, so I again I plead for self-discipline, if possible. I will wield the gavel vigorously to maintain the 5-minute rule, but please help us out so we can get to the next panel. Mr. Lantos. Mr. LANTOS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Before I ask my questions let me publicly express my admiration for your leadership on this issue. Without you, we would not have had the overwhelming vote in the House and it has been a pleasure and an honor to work with you hand-in-glove on this singularly important issue. I would like to address my question to the Secretary. What is the Administration's position with respect to the desirability of a conference committee convening so we can deal with the issues that have been swept under the rug. Mr. KANSTEINER. Thank you, Congressman. The question of oil is a very important part of this peace process. I do not think it is probably the most important though. I believe the southern self-determination question is probably where Mr. LANTOS. Mr. Secretary, I have very little time and I am very happy to listen to you at great length, but I asked a very simple question. What is the Administration's position on convening a conference committee? Are you favoring it? Are you opposing it? Mr. KANSTEINER. Well, of course, Congressman, as you know we have no control over what the Senate does or does not do, but I will tell you what our position is on the bill. I would be happy to do that. Section 9 is of particular interest and concern to us. It involves interference, political interference in capital markets, and as the Assistant Secretary of State for Africa, I go all over Africa asking political leaders, African political leaders, please divorce politics from your economic policy, please do not Mr. LANTOS. Are you living in this world, Mr. Kansteiner? In the United States, we have divorced politics from economics? I mean, I cannot accept the fact that you seriously are making such statements. Mr. KANSTEINER. Absolutely. I mean, the precedent for political Mr. LANTOS. Then come back to this planet because economics and politics are not going to be divorced either in the Sudan or elsewhere. Mr. KANSTEINER. And when you start interfering directly in your capital markets, you are playing with fire. Mr. LANTOS. So far we have played with human lives, millions of human lives. I still would like an answer to my question. Mr. KANSTEINER. The answer 80-060 D-3 Mr. LANTOS. Is the Administration in favor of the conference meeting or is the Administration in favor of the policy of one Senator of blocking it? Mr. KANSTEINER. We have no position on that, but we do have positions on the bill, and I have just outlined where we are on the bill. Mr. LANTOS. Are you personally in favor of seeing a conference committee convene? Mr. KANSTEINER. That is not in my domain. Mr. LANTOS. Are you in favor of placing oil revenues in an internationally-administered trust fund so the resources of this poor country can be devoted to the welfare of the people, health, education, medical care, and not for the purchase of warplanes and helicopter gun ships? Mr. KANSTEINER. I think that is certainly an option, and it is an option that should be looked at as an Mr. LANTOS. I know it is an option. Do you favor that policy? Mr. KANSTEINER. I favor what the Sudanese negotiate in Nairobi in the IGAD process. That is what we have to be supportive of. They have to make this decision. If resource-sharing is going to be based on a formula like the North Sea oil and how Scotland got additional resources, fine. If that is the formula, we are all for it. Mr. LANTOS. We are a long ways from Scotland in this situation. We are dealing with slavery. We are dealing with the death of millions of people. And this degree of equivocation following September 11 simply does not wash. You have to have some respect for the intelligence of the American people and Members of this Congress. We do not wish platitudes. We need straight answers. Mr. KANSTEINER. The answer, Congressman, is oil revenue sharing is critical to the solution of Sudan. How we get there is to be negotiated. Mr. LANTOS. Are you in favor of an internationally-administered trust fund which would use the revenue for the benefit of all the people of the area and will not waste these resources in this very poor country for the purchase of helicopter, gunships and warplanes? Mr. KANSTEINER. As I said, I think that is a very interesting option, a good idea. It is not for us to predetermine how peace negotiations, and this is a very part of the peace negotiation. We cannot predetermine that. We have to let the belligerents decide how they want to do it. Mr. LANTOS. Does the Administration favor self-determination for the Christian south? Mr. KANSTEINER. Absolutely. Mr. LANTOS. Does the Administration favor the establishment of a secular state with the rights of all people to have whatever religion they choose to adhere to? Mr. KANSTEINER. Again, we favor a secular state that will be negotiated within the process. And how the two primary belligerents determine that is worked out, that is what we are going to support. We are going to throw out some ideas and we are going to get Mr. LANTOS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. KANSTEINER [continuing]. Some good ones on the table, and we are going to push them on it. Chairman HYDE. Mr. Gilman. Mr. GILMAN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I will try to be brief. Sudan has been mired in armed conflict much of the last 4 decades. What is your understanding of the sources of the conflict? Is religion a major factor as some observers have suggested? I address that to all of the panelists. Do any of the panelists want to comment? Mr. KANSTEINER. There are multiple factors to the conflict. There has been a long history of ethnic tensions and religious tensions. There is additional pressure because of the oil, as we have mentioned, but way before oil was discovered, there were severe tensions between the regions within Sudan. Mr. GILMAN. Would any of the other panelists want to comment? Mr. Winter? Mr. WINTER. Religion is certainly an important factor in the conflict there. It is an issue of identity. There is no common identity between many of the peoples of Sudan, and religion is a major factor in the division. Mr. GILMAN. What are the major religions? Mr. WINTER. The largest religion in the north is Islam. In the south, there are figures that people disagree about, but there are significant portions of the population that are Christians, and significant portions of the people follow traditional religion. Mr. GILMAN. And, Mr. Young, do you want to want to comment? Mr. YOUNG. Mr. Gilman, our Commission has actually studied that question quite a bit, and it is no doubt a complex situation. It is clear that religion is a substantial part of the cause of that conflict. The attempt on the part now of at least two successive governments in different ways to Islamicize the south has been a very important factor in this struggle. Mr. GILMAN. Do our panelists believe that the government of Sudan still harbor terrorist organizations at the present time? Mr. KANSTEINER. We would be happy to go into detail on that on another setting. Mr. GILMAN. Well, without getting into the details, are they harboring terrorist organizations? Mr. KANSTEINER. They seem to be willing to let certain organizations operate that we are still concerned about, and we would be happy to go into details of which organizations. Mr. GILMAN. Are those terrorist organizations? Mr. KANSTEINER. They are organizations that are affiliated with terrorist organizations. And on the other hand, there has been significant cooperation on the counterterrorism effort since September 11th with the government in Khartoum. Mr. GILMAN. Mr. Winter or Mr. Young, do you have a comment? Mr. YOUNG. Mr. Gilman, we have not examined that issue. The Commission does not have a statutory mandate that would authorize that. Mr. GILMAN. The present government continues to discriminate against non-Muslims despite repeated pledges by the government to respect the rights of non-Muslims. Several thousand southern Sudanese women have been imprisoned and punished in recent years for violation of the Islamic laws. Are non-Muslims being persecuted by the government of Sudan? All of the panelists? Mr. KANSTEINER. Mike, you look at that pretty closely. Mr. YOUNG. Mr. Gilman, absolutely. That is at least some part of what is targeted in the south. It is also important to stress that a part of the problem with food distribution has been attempts to use some of the food distribution as a way to force conversions. We found substantial evidence of that. Plus, it is important to stress that Muslims in the northern part of Sudan have also been subject to severe persecution if they do not follow the appropriate version of Islam that the government promulgates. Mr. GILMAN. Mr. Winter, do you want to comment on that? Mr. WINTER. I am just glad that Mike brought that up. There is substantial opposition to this government in the north amongst Muslim populations because the government represents an extremist brand of Islam. So the difficulties with the government are not only in the south, there are plenty of people in the north that also suffer. Mr. GILMAN. One more question, Mr. Chairman. Chairman HYDE. I am sorry-well, no, you have 32 seconds. Go ahead. Mr. GILMAN. Thank you. Sudan denies, the government denies permission for flights of humanitarian aid in southern Sudan. In 1998, an estimated 100,000 people died in part due to the refusal of humanitarian flights. Are they still preventing humanitarian assistance from being sent to some regions, Mr. Winter? Mr. WINTER. Yes, absolutely. This is why I am proposing that a major part of our future direction in negotiations with Sudan deals with this issue. Our belief at USAID is that we need to assure that the government cannot unilaterally detain humanitarian flights as they are currently doing in western upper Nile where there are a lot of people in serious jeopardy. Chairman HYDE. Mr. Payne. Mr. GILMAN. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Mr. PAYNE. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Thank you for calling this very important hearing. I find the testimony very interesting. Thank you very much, Mr. Assistant Secretary. And of course, Mr. Winter, you are probably the most knowledgeable person at the table on the issues of Sudan, having served for so many years in another capacity. And, Chairman Young, I certainly could not agree more strongly with your recommendations and the findings of the commission, and I would hope that you would continue to advocate and have your supporters advocate so that perhaps we can get some movement in the situation in Sudan. It is crystal clear that the National Islamic Front government in Sudan is still an evil government. It is a government that continues to bomb its people. It is a government that continues to enslave its people. It is a government that continues to use food as a weapon. It is a government that has over 40 sites currently in southern Sudan that have been called "off limits." It is a government that has denied the tri-partite agreement of 1989, which said that food should not be used as a weapon. And so there is no question about the fact that the government of the Sudan has not changed. Let me ask a question: It was shortly after September 11th when the conference committee was on the Floor-was Mr. Tancredo actually getting ready to name the conferees? Perhaps, Mr. Assistant Secretary, was it the White House that had a message that said to pull the conferees as Mr. Tancredo was ready to speak, he was called off the Floor? Could you tell me about that situation, to your knowledge? Mr. KANSTEINER. I am sorry, Congressman. I do not have any knowledge of that. Mr. PAYNE. Well, I do. [Laughter.] And there was a message from the White House that said because of September the 11th, the view on Sudan has changed. Now we are going to be a government that stands for something, and after 40 years of death and starvation, that all of a sudden an evil, wicked government becomes our allies; a government that harbored Osama bin Laden as he planted bombs in our Embassies, all of a sudden becomes a government that has now changed; and so for once we thought we had something that could finally make the government of Sudan listen. We had capital market sanctions looming in a position that people doing business in Sudan had to report to the Securities Commission. But this tool has been denied us. Let me ask a question because I am a little bit confused on this too, Mr. Kansteiner. You say that there is support for self-determination for the people of southern Sudan. However, in Mr. Danforth's report there is an apparent linkage of self-determination and secession. His rejection of self-determination as an option for the people of southern Sudan disturbs me because the IGAD process has always said it is an option; not that anyone was pushing it, but that self-determination should be an option. For the Danforth Report to make it clear that the Senator does not support that as an option, I think, weakens the whole negotiating position. Could you comment on that? Mr. KANSTEINER. Certainly. I might preface by explaining that Senator Danforth was asked by President Bush to be a special envoy to look at the possibility of a peace process actually happening in Sudan, and that was his primary tasking. He did an excellent and superb job in coming up with some tests to see if the belligerents were willing and close enough for us to push. On self-determination, Congressman Payne, you know that it is an absolute cornerstone for the peace process. In fact, I, quite frankly, think self-determination and the sovereignty issue of the south is probably at the very core of this entire peace process, so that it has to be front and center. Mr. PAYNE. Let me interrupt before the time has expired, the 30 seconds Chairman HYDE. The gentleman's time has expired. Mr. PAYNE [continuing]. Because I have one last question since I went along with your request not to make even a statement at |