The central and southern Florida flood control district is an example of this. In any case, operation and control should be placed in the hands of the smallest unit that can accomplish the desired works and the State is the proper agency to coordinate these activities.

The Congress can best aid the State and local efforts by (1) reaffirming the delegation of authority to the States to allocate and control water; (2) defining types of projects to which the Federal Government might be expected to contribute; (3) providing for long-range planning and scheduling of projects to which the Federal Government contributes; (4) removing unnecessary prejudices which seem to be applied on a blanket basis without regard to the merits of individual projects; and (5) stimulating local and State efforts by contributing to well-planned and well-conceived local projects as contrasted with the requirement of local assistance for Federal projects.

The Nation's water resources can, in our opinion, best be protected and developed by employing a team approach involving local, State, and Federal agencies. The State should retain its historical position as the coordinator of the team while active operation and administration should be a local responsibility. The Federal Government can best serve the team by stimulating adherence to a national plan. This scheme will assure flexibility to conform to varying needs in various parts of the country without sacrificing the basic precept that the Federal Government should concern itself with the welfare of the country as a whole.

Thank you, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you. I would like to ask one question, Senator Holland.

The second paragraph on page 4, last sentence, says:

We wish to recommend that this committee consider ways to assign a monetary value to recreational activities and that the value be commensurate with that which the average individual is willing to pay to enjoy such benefits.

I assumed that you are talking about developing a formula which would give value or which would recognize the economic value of the recreational aspects of a multipurpose project.

Mr. WAKEFIELD. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Have you given consideration to what will be an appropriate and equitable yardstick for measuring that economic value?

Mr. WAKEFIELD. I have no formula developed, sir. Yes; I have given consideration to it.

The CHAIRMAN. Would you give the committee the benefit of your thinking on that?

Mr. WAKEFIELD. It is my thought that the value should be based, as I stated, somewhat on the level that sportsmen and people enjoying these benefits are willing to pay for such benefits.

The CHAIRMAN. You did not contemplate a toll aspect?

Mr. WAKEFIELD. No, sir; merely that, for example, I think it is a little bit unrealistic to assign, let us say, $1 per fisherman day when the average fisherman is willing to spend $5 or $10 in order to do the fishing.

The CHAIRMAN. As I see it, it will be difficult in any regard to secure acceptance both by the Congress and the Executive of a predetermined scale of values. However, if such an element is to be pro

vided and available, it will have to be on a predetermined basis because the time that this economic value is vital is when a proposed project is being surveyed and evaluated by the appropriate Federal

The CHAIRMAN. So there will have to be an arbitrary yardstick developed and provided if the objective you seek and with which I am in complete agreement is to be obtained.

Mr. WAKEFIELD. I agree with that, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Frankly, I am personally sponsoring legislation that would fix such a value and direct that it be recognized in determining the economic elements necessary to justify authorization.

And the Corps of Engineers has evidenced not only interest but the attitude to recognize that such an element should be among the items of assets in the economic evaluation, and so has the Bureau of Reclamation. The Bureau of the Budget advises that they recognize there is such a value, but they have not gotten around yet to being willing to say what they think that value might be. That is the reason why I asked you if you would give the committee the benefit of what you think it might be because we are going to have hearings on this. We are going to have to come to grips with it. We are going to have to make a decision. If anything is done, and for it to be of any value when made, it must be one that will be accepted and adopted.

Mr. WAKEFIELD. We have not yet worked up any definite recommendations on it. But I would like to have the privilege of doing so, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. You said you thought $1 a day was an unrealistic estimate. I would say that if we could get a yardstick even of that limited specification adopted it would be of tremendous assistance in the matter of making an accurate and equitable evaluation of these projects and would result in many being of such economic assets as to justify authorization which otherwise would not be.

Mr. WAKEFIELD. I agree with you, sir.

We have one aspect that is very important to us and that is recreational boating. We have many streams that have in the past had commercial boating on them that no longer have commercial boating but have a great deal of recreational boating.

The CHAIRMAN. I think there is great economic value to a project for recreational purposes other than boating or fishing and the use of which by the public generally generates commercial activity and economic benefits which should be recognized right along with the fishing and boating.

Mr. WAKEFIELD. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. If you develop some definite thoughts and recommendations on that, I would be very glad if you would provide them to the committee.

Mr. WAKEFIELD. Thank you, sir.

Senator HOLLAND. Thank you, Mr. Wakefield.

Senator Young, have you any questions?

Senator YOUNG. Just one or two.

Do you have any projects here that tend to reduce the value of fish and wildlife interests?

Mr. WAKEFIELD. We have projects that may do some damage in certain parts of the project. I don't think that the overall effect is reducing the value; no. In other words, if you take the project as a whole, I think in most cases it is enhancing the value of recreational benefits. But if you put too much water in a lake, for example, or raise the level of the lake above a certain stage, the propagation of fish in a particular part of the lake may be damaged.

Senator YOUNG. Do you have any figures on the amount of money that the State of Florida and its political subdivisions match each year on these Federal projects?

Mr. WAKEFIELD. The State has been matching in the central and southern Florida flood control district. This is the only Federal project that the State is matching funds with at the present time.

The State has been appropriating, I believe, an average of about $3 million a year. This present biennium is $2,500,000 for the first year of the biennium and $750,000 for the second year.

Senator YOUNG. For that one project?

Mr. WAKEFIELD. For that one project; yes, sir.
Senator YOUNG. That is all. Thank you.

Mr. WAKEFIELD. Thank you, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Holland, I would like at this moment to interrupt and present to this fine group of people the personnel of the staff of this committee.

No one is more aware of the importance of the senatorial Members than I am nor is anyone more aware of the fact that in order for that importance to be substantiated and recognized we have to have a lot of brains back of it other than those the Senators have. We have them in the personnel of our staff.

I would like to present Mr. Ted Schad, who is the staff director of this committee and ask him to introduce the other members of the staff that appear.

Mr. SCHAD. Thank you, Senator.

Our committee has received a lot of help from the other committees concerned with water resources development, as well as from the members of this committee. Some of the members have sent staff members along to represent them and to assist the committee with the hearings. First I would like to introduce Mr. Phil Dickinson, representing Senator Engle of California.

The CHAIRMAN. I thought it was especially important that you knew that he was in the room.

Mr. DICKINSON. I was hoping that might be concealed, Senator. I am glad to be here, anyway and am sorry that Senator Engle cannot make it.

Mr. SCHAD. We have Mr. Doyle Kline, representing Senator Anderson of New Mexico, and Miss Muriel Ferris, representing Senator Hart of Michigan.

The other Senate committees that work in water resources have been mentioned and we have Mr. Gene Eaton who is on the staff of the Interior and Insular Affairs Committee and Mr. John Mutz, of the Public Works Committee, who are helping this committee staff with these hearings and the other work.

I hardly need to introduce one of our consultants who is a resident of Florida, I am sure you know him; Herb Gee, who is a consultant

to the committee and who, I believe, assisted Senator Holland in some measure in preparing for this hearing.

We also have one of Senator Kerr's assistants, Malvina Stephenson along. I do not think she is here. We have one of his secretaries traveling as secretary to the committee and she is upstairs working, Miss Ada Lenz.

And we have our chief clerk here, Mr. Paul McBride.

Senator HOLLAND. Mr. Chairman, there have already been two or three references to California and Florida. I think I ought to say that I have found from long years of experience that California is one of our best friends. The problems faced by the two States are similar. We try to be one of California's best friends and California and Florida agree on one thing, at least, that is, that the Nation would be terribly poor without those two fine States.

The CHAIRMAN. The motion is lost for a want of a second.
Mr. DICKINSON. Senator, I second it.

Senator HOLLAND. Mr. Chairman, the next witness we will call is also a State official, Dr. Robert O. Vernon, Florida State geologist.

STATEMENT OF ROBERT 0. VERNON, FLORIDA STATE GEOLOGIST

Mr. VERNON. We, the officials and citizens of Florida who are most interested in water resources, welcome the distinguished statesmen from Washington and elsewhere.

In another capacity while the distinguished Senator and humorist from Oklahoma was Governor he also served as Chairman of the Interstate Compact Commission and I had the pleasure of serving with him for several years in that capacity.

I want to tell the Senator that here in Jacksonville we can drill artesian wells and attain flows of 10 million to 12 million gallons of water a day. Out in Oklahoma they drill wells and just get money out of them.

The CHAIRMAN. All I can say is your Senator was very kind in indicating I was continuing a precedent of humor. I notice that you are trying to start one and I think doing a wonderful job of it.

Mr. VERNON. Senator, we have a number of State agencies in Florida who are concerned with water resources, the State board of health being interested in the health situation, the game and fresh water fish in so far as their responsibilities carry, the salt water fish commission in salt waters, the University of Florida in various facets of soil and in soil waters, the meteorology department in both universities insofar as climate is concerned.

The water resources department was created to coordinate these studies and to enter the field of water management.

The Florida Geological Survey is charged by the legislature with the responsibility of making studies of the State's water and mineral resources, collecting data and publishing on these.

Insofar as water resources are concerned, the survey has published resource data since its origin in 1907 and one section of this department is engaged in active studies of water and geology today. The survey is the principal State agency that cooperates and coordinates water resource studies in Florida made by the U.S. Geological Survey, whereby we provide one-half of the necessary funds for that purpose.

More than 55 titles covering the area-water resources studies-by the Florida and U.S. Geological Survey have been published in regular publications of the Florida survey. Two copies of the list of publications of the Florida Geological Survey are being filed with the Senate select committee.

The proposed 1959-61 program for water studies in Florida and a record of the past program is contained in the Florida Geological Survey's Thirteenth Biennial Report, pages 20, 21, 47-49 and 59. I am pleased to file with the committee two copies of this report and additional copies can be made available upon request.

You have also received copies of this report through Mr. Wakefield's previously submitted report.

Florida does stand at the top in the Nation of 50 States in water resources, having a high annual rainfall near 52 inches. These resources, contained in 50 major stream basins, uncounted thousands of lakes, the number having been estimated at more than 30,000, and includes the largest fresh water lake contained within the boundaries of one State, and in the Florida aquifer, one of the most prolific and widespread aquifers in the world.

Our problem is one of water management and distribution, of giving the water to the place at the time it is needed.

The improvement of the controls on these resources is expensive and the Florida Legislature recognized its responsibilities in these matters by having funds appropriated with which appraisals of some of our water basins could be undertaken.

The Florida survey is, having made four feasibility studies in Peace, Suwannee and Contoohatchee river basins and of the SanfordTraswell Canal, a link to the Cross-Florida Barge Canal, an authorized project of Congress, the State is hopeful that sufficient details will be developed to encourage further State, local and Federal investment in improving waterways in these basins and combine these with all other water improvements in adjacent States and in Florida.

I would caution the Congress in tying the issue of water resources solely to physical improvements only. All facets of the problem would include the cleaning of basin data and relating these to physical improvements and studying their results on the water resources in the field of water management and the effects of these structures on the natural balance of game, fish, sedimentation, beach erosion and other facets.

The CHAIRMAN. While you have paused there, I was tremendously interested in your statement about the enormous flow of fresh water available in artesian wells. That is in this area?

Mr. VERNON. That is in the Jacksonville area; yes, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. Where we are now.

Mr. VERNON. We have the record flow here of some of them. The CHAIRMAN. How much of the State is underlaid with aquifers of fresh water that produce in substantial quantities?

wide

Mr. VERNON. The Florida aquifer is composed of very porous, spread limestone that goes to depths of several thousand feet and is in some areas exposed to land surface. This limestone is filled with fresh water-underneath South Carolina, parts of Georgia, parts of Alabama, all of Florida, with the exception of probably the westernmost part.

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