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consider what those alterations should be ; be expected that they should give np but he distinctly added that he would their private concerns altogether, or do never be a party to, or recommend any without some relaxation. At the same measure of Reform, which was not founded time he fully admitted that every other on similar principles, and as effective as consideration should yield to a sense of regarded its declared object, as that which public duty. Whatever that required, he was lately before Parliament. This was and bis colleagues would advise ; but they the whole of what passed between him and had a right to claim credit to this extent, the delegates from the parishes, except that whether they were to think it expedia that when they represented to him that ent to recommend the prorogation of Parif satisfaction was not given to the public, liament for the usual time or not, they did as to the length of time on which Parlia- proceed with a sincere desire to effect the ment was to be prorogued, it would tend great object they had in view—the meato increase the agitation and excitement sure of Reform; and he felt after all that which prevailed ; he felt himself called had passed, that he did not call on his upon to inform those who communicated fellow-countrymen for too much, when he with him that it was their duty to use all asked them to wait patiently before they the means in their power to repress agita- pronounced a censure on what might not tion and excitement, and to keep the peo- appear to them quite conformable with the ple in obedience to the laws of the country, promotion of this great measure, though it that the Ministers might not be placed might ultimately tend to it. He felt that in the painful situation of being compelled he had said a great deal on this subject, to use those powers which, as a Govern- more, perhaps, ihan was necessary. He ment, it was their duty to use for the pre- asked pardon for the defective manner in servation of the public peace. With which, he feared, he had laid the financial respect to the prorogation, he would only part of this statement before their Lordsay, that whatever might be the length of ships; but then they were aware that he the period to which his Majesty's Minis- was not accustomed to those statements. ters thought it their duty to recommend He hoped, however, that he had suffihis Majesty to prorogue Parliament, it ciently shewn the result-founded on a would be regulated by a sincere desire to knowledge of the receipts and expenditure do that which they considered most con- of the three last quarters, that there was a ducive to the advancement of the great surplus revenue of 493,0001. If he had measure of Parliamentary Reform. It wished, he might have stated the result must be considered, however, that there more advantageously to himself, and made were limits to human strengih. From the the excess appear greater. Thanking their month of October last, with a short inter- Lordships for their indulgence, he should mission, more fatiguing, perhaps, than now conclude, hoping that if anything even the sitting of Parliament, his Majes- occurred, in the course of debate calling ty's Ministers had been engaged in anxious for it, he should be allowed again to adand laborious occupation. His noble dress them. friend on the Woolsack, for instance, had The Duke of Wellington was happy to gone through a degree of labour, in that find the noble Earl thought himself justiHouse and out of it, which nothing but hed in denying some part of his statehis extraordinary strength of mind and ment, and that the noble Earl calculated body could have enabled him to go upon a larger surplus than he had given through. In the other House, two noble credit for. He was also glad to hear the friends of his, on whom the business of negotiations relating to Belgium and Holconducting the Reform Bill peculiarly land were likely to be brought to a successdevolved, besides the duties of their offices, ful termination. As to the excitement to had been in constant attendance in the which the noble Earl had alluded, this House of Commons, early and late, during was not the time to go into the question. the last three months. His noble friend, He agreed however with the noble Earl, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, particu- that it was greatly to be lamented, but he larly, had been compelled to devote his had his own opinions as to the causes of it. time incessantly to the discharge of He trusted, however, noble Lords and hon. his public duties. Many Members of Gentleinen of the other House would be Parliament, too, bad private business careful how they promoted it by speeches which required attention, and it could not I either in or out of Parliament,

himself upon

1815 to 1831.

The Lord Chancellor said, in conse- none could feel more devoted than he and quence of attempts that were most perti- his colleagues. The public would see naciously made to induce a belief that when that measure was again brought bethere existed a difference of opinion before Parliament, the candour with which tween his noble friend (Earl Grey) and they had acted, and that the period that

the subject of Reform; he would intervene was no longer than was would take that opportunity to repeat, that required, he would not say in justice, but he heartily and fully concurred in all the in mercy. remarks made by his noble friend. He Bill read a third time and passed. had expressed the same sentiments before, but this had not induced certain persons

HOUSE OF COMMONS, to desist from misrepresentation ; he spoke

Monday, October 17, 1831. in the presence of his colleagues, and he would declare, there had never been the Minutes.) Bills brought in. By Lord Viscount DuncanNON, slightest difference of opinion between his

to enable Churchwardens and Overseers to enclose Lands

belonging to the Crown for the benefit of Poor Persons noble friend and himself respecting the residing in the parishes where such Crown Lands are situmost minute details of the Bill-be would

ated. Read a third time; Interplcader.

Returns ordered. On the Motion of Mr. HUNT, of all the not say the principle, for as to that, it must

Expenses incurred in holding the late Special Combe evident they all agreed; but he wonlu missions :-On the Motion of Colonel Evans, of the

Expense of the Military Asylums of Chelsea, Isle of say, even the smallest particular of it. He

Wight, Southampton, &e., from the first establishment to had only to add on the subject of the re- 31st December, 1830:-On the Motion of Mr. RUTHVEN, cess, that he had no apprehensions from of the Fees received by the Commissioners of Bankrupts in

Dublin, for the year 1829, 1850, and 1831, ending the 31st the impatience of two or three individuals,

March in each year ; of the Emoluments received by the well disposed and respectable persons, no Seeretary and Clerk of Emoluments during the same time, doubt, and most zealous for the success

and of all sums paid for Sealing Commissions, for the same of the Reform Bill, but who in recom

time, distinguishing each year:-On the Motion of Mr. Pou

LETT THOMSON, the quantity of unrefined Sugar entered mending a prorogation for a week, cer- for Home Consumption, and the duty paid thereon from tainly did not display a “ zeal according Petitions presented. By Mr. Dominic Browne, from Landto knowledge.” Ile must declare his

owners, Merchants, and others, of Newtownsmith, for the opinion, that for the Session to recom- extension of the Elective Franchise of Galway to Camence after so brief an interval, and to

tholics. expect his noble friends in another place GENERAL REGISTRY BILL.) Mr. Blato renew their advocacy of the measure mire, in presenting a Petition from certain was physically impossible--human strength Freeholders near Cockermouth, in the could not endure it. After having given County of Cumberland, against the General three months, day and night, to deliber- Registry Bill, stated, that his Constitnents ation and discussion, it was positively ne- were very adverse to the measure, because cessary, that some considerable relaxation they apprehended that they would be obliged should be had. None felt more than he to send their title-deeds to London; that did the impossibility of continuing such a great expense would be incurred by exertions. It was about twelve months landowners in the remote parts of the since he began hard work in London, and kingdom, in searching the register; that it during that whole time he had enjoyed no would be necessary to employ London respite with the exception of two days at solicitors in all transactions of sale and Christmas and Easter. During that period mortgage arising in the country; from the he had been occupied from six o'clock in minute divisions of property in Cumberthe morning till midnight; and if any man land, it would cause so much expense as was so unreasonable as to say, he ought wholly to prevent the transfer of small not to be allowed a little repose, with that estates, and that, from there being so man he would not stop to argue. He many persons in Cumberland of the same would throw himself on the good sense name, the index to the register would and kind feeling of his countrymen, and afford no information. They were not he was confident they would not bring in aware of any instances of estates being a verdict of Guilty. Whatever advice lost by concealed deeds. But there was should be offered as to the time of proro- a grievance felt there, which if it could be gation, the people of England might rest cured by a clause in the Bill, his constituassured, that it would be given on a solemnents would be willing to agree to all the principle of public duty, and with a view inconveniences of registration, wbich was, to the carrying of that measure to which I that almost every estate was held by 855 General Registry Bill. {COMMONS Administration of Oaths. 856 mixed tenures of copyhold, freehold, and Mr. Blamire felt it necessary to return customary freehold ; and as the boundaries his thanks to the hon. and learned Genof the land held by each tenure could not tleman for his explanation. There was be pointed out, no good title could be one point, however, on which he wished made, and the seller was always at the to set himself right : the petitioners did not mercy of the purchaser.

mean to state, that no instances of fraud Mr. John Campbell said, this petition had occurred from concealed deeds, but was a fresh proof that the Register Bill that they knew of no such instances. was opposed from being misrepresented Mr. Burge was fully convinced that no or misunderstood. A Metropolitan-office professional man in the country would be was preferred to offices in every county, satisfied, unless his town-agent went to for the sake of economy, uniformity of the Register-office and searched for inpractice, and facility of search ; but every formation bimself. landowner would continue to keep his Mr. John Campbell assured the hon. deeds in his own muniment-room. A and learned Member, there would be no copy (exempted from Stamp duty) would such necessity. The Officer at the Registerbe sent to the Register-office, and this was office, on application, would copy

from the found upon calculation to be cheaper than Record all the information that was rea memorial, while it would be much more quired, indeed it would be impossible for useful. Regulations were introduced into any Attorney to obtain by personal applithe Bill for equalizing expense in trans- cation more information than could be actions over the whole kingdom, so that communicated by the Register in writing. registration upon the sale of an estate in Petition to be printed. Cumberland would not cost more than if it were in Surrey. The solicitor in the ADMINISTRATION OF Oaths.] Mr. country would correspond directly through Wilks presented a Petition from a Conthe Post-office with the Register-office, gregation of Dissenters at Salisbury, prayboth as to searches and the registration of ing that the administration of Oaths might deeds, and the employment of any solicitor be altered. or agent in London would be wholly un- Mr. Cutlar Fergusson hoped this imnecessary. The very difficulty pointed portant subject would soon be brought out, arising from the frequent occurrence under the distinct attention of the House. of the same name, was met by the Bill; There were many oaths which could safely for, instead of an index of names of grantors, be abrogated; one of the most absurd there was to be a symbolical index, upon was that which was required to be taken the principle of a ledger; and a single page by Protestant Members of that House, would show with absolute certainty, all who were compelled to swear it was not in the deeds affecting any particular lands. the power of the Pope to absolve subjects If the petitioners would read the evidence from their allegiance.

But the most laid before the Real Property Commis- whimsical part of the ceremony was, that sioners, they would find that instances Catholics, who were the only persons who were constantly occurring, bona fide pur- were supposed to put faith in the doctrine, chasers being turned out of possession were not required to take the oath. This by suppressed deeds being brought for- subject had never received the large and ward; and that in every transaction of liberal consideration it deserved. He hoped sale or mortgage, the expense is enor- Parliament would soon come to the conmously increased by the precautions re- clusion that the multiplicity of oaths only sorted to for the purpose of guarding tended to weaken the moral influence of against this danger, which must always the obligation which they imposed; his exist till a register is established. With opinion was, that all the oaths to be taken respect to the evil arising from diversity of by official persons ought to be reduced to tenure, it was one of a totally different nature, one, and that one should be the Oath of and could not be met by this measure ; Allegiance. but in a future Session of Parliament, it Mr. Wilks, in moving that the petition was his intention to introduce a Bill which be printed, said, he concurred fully in would be an effectual remedy; for the the remarks made by the hon. and learned operation of it would be, that all the land | Member, and a proof of the necessity in England would in time be held by one of some amendment being made on this tenure,-viz., free and common soccage, subject, he must beg to inform the House,

that by certain Bills which had lately passed, because they were fully convinced the 300,000 oaths which had been previously law was clear against them. One inditaken annually at the Excise and Custom vidual alone, in Calcutta, had abandoned Offices were abolished. He knew a person property to the amount of a lack of who declared that he had taken upwards rupees, about 12,0001., on this point of 1000 such oaths, and had never inquired alone, without making any attempt whatas to the object of any of them.

ever to retain it. Petition to be printed.

Mr. Cutlar Fergusson said, if persons

felt themselves aggrieved in this respect, Pilgrim Tax.] Mr. Wilks presented they would of course make application to a Petition from Protestant Dissenters at the local government of British India, Reading, for the extension of civil rights which had the power to make and amend to the inhabitants of India, and for the the laws and regulations for the adminissuppression of the Pilgrim Tax. A dis- tration of property, both of Hindoos and cussion had recently taken place upon this Mahometans, being the subjects of their latter part of the subject, as to whether government, and under their jurisdiction. Hindoos on becoming Christians forfeited That circumstance all those persons well their property, and considerable doubts knew, and the records of India would prevailed upon the point; but from in- consequently shew whether any appliformation which he had recently received cations had been made on the point. In from Calcutta, he could affirm, that a the absence of any such application (for he Hindoo on becoming a Christian, was con- could take it upon himself to say none demned by British Judges in India to the such existed) it was but fair to infer, that forfeiture of his property.

the grievance did not exist. If it did Mr. Cutlar Fergusson said, in conse- exist, persons should apply to the local quence of the former discussion, he had governments in India which had the power examined all the authorities on the sub- to afford them redress. ject, and he could discover no one in- Petition to be printed. stance of a native of India losing his inheritance on becoming a Christian. He REFORM-Petitions.] Mr. Dominick was quite sure no Court of Law, in a Browne presented a Petition from Galway country where Christian government was for the speedy passing of the Reform Bill. established, would condemn a man to the He wished to observe, that there was a forfeiture of his property on adopting the unanimous feeling in Ireland in favour of religion of the Government. According the Bill. It was universally hoped, that to the Hindoo laws, a man must be perfect Ministers would not relax in their exbefore he could inherit property; if he was ertions until they had carried a question lame, blind, or imbecile in mind, he was which the great mass of the community excluded. These laws, however, were expected would produce great benefit to never enforced. He had known an in- both countries. stance of a person who was blind, who Mr. Hunt said, that as he was not achad recovered an estate worth 30,000 quainted with Ireland, he would not deny rupees; and no one had ventured to the assertion of the hon. Member; but object, on account of his infirmity, al- they had had the same assertion made though the letter of the law was clearly with respect to England, and he knew against him. And so it would be ruled, that that was not the fact.

It was only should any such application be made to a the corrupt Press that represented the Court on a man becoming a Christian; it feeling as universal in favour of the Bill. was perfectly impossible that a British The other day, there was a meeting at Judge could decree that a man was to Birmingham, said to consist of a 150,000 lose his inheritance from embracing the persons; and as that meeting was in Christian religion.

favour of the Bill, the Press made the Mr. Wilks believed, notwithstanding the most of it. But there was also, the other great deference due to the hon. and day, as large a meeting at Manchester, learned Member's authority, that the hon. which had been called by the Whigs, Member was mistaken on the subject. but at which they had been completely He had known cases in India, in which beaten, and therefore the account of it persons would not even try the question, was almost suppressed by the public and had given up considerable property, papers. What they did state of it was

wrong. They said that the meeting was amount of half a million. He agreed perin favour of the Reform Bill, but the truth fectly with the hon. Members who had was, that an amendment was carried, and spoken before. Ireland undoubtedly ought the meeting had petitioned for Universal tohave at least 150 Representatives, taking Suffrage, Annual Parliaments, and Vote into account the amount of its relative by Ballot; and Lord Grey was requested population to that of the whole empire. 10 present a Petition, founded on these Sir Richard Vyvyan did not think that resolutions, to his Majesty. In all prob- the amount of population alone was a ability, however, they would hear no reason in favour of the extension of Memmore of the petition, as it was opposed to bers to Ireland, as to the borough of the measure brought forward by Ministers. Dundalk, such places were often of great Instead of the flags at the meeting, as it advantage, as they brought to Parliament was asserted, having the words “ The Irish Members, and he might mention the Reforin Bill,” “ William 4th and the recent case of Milbourn Port as an inMinisters ;" they had the words“ Univer- stance. Did hon. Gentlemen who set up sal Suffrage," " Annual Parliaments," and that plea consider the amount of popula« Vote by Ballot.”

tion in British India. If the measure had Sir John Bourke said, as a proof that been framed only on the basis of populathere was almost a universal feeling in tion, they inight claim Members, but that Ireland in favour of the Reform Bill, was not the case, property was also taken he must state, that he had recently been into consideration, and Ireland had her at a meeting in Ballinasloe of all the fair share of Members in proportion to her gentry and landed proprietors of that part contributions to the general revenue. of the country, and he never saw a greater Mr. Ruthven said, he was surprised at degree of anxiety evinced in favour of the inconsistency of the hon. member for any measure than was there evinced in Preston, who seemed to have joined the favour of the Reform Bill.

Tories in making attacks upon the late Mr. Dominick Browne, in reference to measure of Reform. That Bill had met the remarks of the hon. member for the approval of the great body of the Preston, felt himself called upon to Irish people; but he, in common with the repeat, that the great majority of the great body of his countrymen, laid claim people of Ireland were in favour of Re- to a large increase of Representatives for form. He could distinctly affirm, that was Ireland. the case in the county he had the honour Mr. Leader agreed with the honto represent. The same feeling was pre-ourable Baronet, the member for Oakvalent among all classes and sects. The hampton, that

and property only drawback upon the feeling being should be considered as tests for Repreuniversal was, a wish that more Repre- sentation as well as population. Besides sentatives should have been allotted to the amount paid into the Exchequer, on that county.

account of Ireland, there must be conMr. Sheil said, the sentiments of the sidered the immense sum, at least people of Ireland generally could be 4,000,0001., sent anually to her absentee gathered from the fact, that there was not proprietors, which was chiefly spent in one of their real Representatives who England, and in any fair measure of the were opposed to the Bill. There could be allotment of Representatives, this sum no doubt there were many persons in must be taken into account. If that counIreland opposed to the Bill, but they were try was well governed, it might materially persons having an interest in the borough assist in contributing to the necessities of system, and distinct interests from the the whole kingdom ; but its best energies people. To show how that system worked were cramped by misgovernment, and it in Ireland, he might mention, that the was too hard to hear the effects of that present and the three preceding members misgovernment alleged as a plea to defor Dundalk were in no way whatever prive her of her rights. connected with that town, and that one of Sir Francis Burdett said, that the these Gentlemen had actually never seen talent, eloquence, and zeal of Members it, and yet it deserved a better system of from Ireland in that House had often Representation attached to it, for the place contributed to the success of the most contained 15,000 Catholic inhabitants, useful measures. The cause of Reform and had an annual export trade to the especially was greatly indebted to some of


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