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dissatisfied with the Select Vestry system ment and discontent with regard to the which now prevailed.

Vestry system. He did not oppose the Viscount Melbourne said, that the dis- Bill, but the object of his motion was, to satisfaction was not confined to parishes prevent a small number of parishioners in London, but extended to several large from forcing the Bill upon an unwilling towns, such as Bristol and Birmingham. parish. His amendment was this-to

The Duke of Wellington said, ihat the leave out the words, “ of two-thirds of complaint, he believed, chiefly rested with all the rate-payers of this parish have been the metropolis. He should be glad to given in favour of the adoption of the know, why their Lordships should be said Act,” for the purpose of adding the called upon to repeal Mr. Sturges Bourne's words, “ Provided always, that the maAct, which had worked well, and, taking jority of two-thirds of the votes given in the country generally, was much approved favour of the adoption of the said Act of of. That Act had given great satisfaction Parliament, shall constitute a clear mato the country; but, if it were necessary jority of the rate-payers of the parish.” to alter the law at all, why not confine Viscount Melbourne had no objection the alteration to the metropolis where the to adopt the amendment of the noble dissatisfaction was felt? lle agreed with Earl, but he could not consent to the the noble and learned Lord near him amendment of the noble and learned (Lord Wynford), that the vote for parish Lord, or to adopt the suggestion of the vestries was very different from that for noble Duke. He begged to inform the electing Members of Parliament, as far as Committee, that the dissatisfaction to the the principle of both was concerned. By Vestry system was not confined to the methe law, as it now stood, every man had a tropolis, but was experienced at Bristol, right to attend a Vestry and vote; but, Birmingham, and other large towns. He owing to the large size of parishes, it was was anxious to remedy the evils which had convenient, and indeed necessary, to have given rise to the discontent which now another mode introduced to carry on the pervaded so many parishes. Abuses to a affairs of the parish—that was to say, a considerable extent were complained of, Select Vestry, for the purpose of regulat- and rates, in many parishes, had been ining, distributing, and accounting for, the creased; but he wished it to be underrates, To regulate that matter, Mr. stood, that increase of rates did not imply Sturges Bourne's Act was passed, but misconduct on the part of the Select it related solely to the country, and let Vestries. Considering the length of time that be applied to the metropolis. What which this Bill had been before Parliaobjection was there to that? Why it was ment, without imputing obstinacy to those said, there must be a meeting of the rate- who opposed its provisions (for he wished payers to decide whether the Bill should not to be considered as casting censure be adopted or not. The optional clanse upon any one) he really thought ample of the Bill was, in his opinion, most ob- time had been given to consider its merits, jectionable. It would be cause for ex- and he would venture to express a hope, citement and agitation; and he repeated, that their Lordships would allow it to pass. that it would be far better to extend Mr. The Earl of Falmouth said, he saw no Sturges Bourne's Act at once to the me- reason why the operation of this Bill tropolis than pass this Bill.

should not be confined to Bristol and BirThe Earl of Haddington said, his sug- mingham, and the large towns, where gestion having given rise to this discussion, objections to the present law were enterhe begged to add a few words. If he tained, without making its provisions geunderstood rightly the operation of Mr. neral. He begged to ask the noble Sturges Bourne's Act, it had no applica- Viscount, whether complaints had reached tion to any parish regulated by a local him from many parishes? In parishes in Act, unless expressly applied to it. If which he (Lord Falmouth) possessed prothe law were defective, it would have been perty, he would assure their Lordships, infinitely beiter to introduce a Bill for the that the system, as it now stood, worked metropolis only, in preference to making well, and was not complained of, but, on the alteration general throughout the coun- the contrary, persons in general were satistry. He felt a difficulty in the matter, fied with it. because, if the Bill were rejected, the me- The Earl of Harrowby confessed that tropolis would be left in a state of excite- he had not paid much attention to the

subject now under consideration; and the other places than in those towns which information which he possessed was chiefly had been enumerated, or where complaints derived from the conversation he had against the present plan of Select Vesjoined in. But the Bill appeared to him tries existed." He begged again to inquire open to many objections. The great mea- whether the noble Viscount had heard any sure which had engrossed their Lordships' objections from rural parishes, as well minds during the last six months would, as large towns? If the Bill were to be he hoped, be taken partly as an excuse for adopted, why not confine it solely to the his not having paid that attention to the towns where complaints had been made ? present Bill which the subject warranted. Viscount Melbourne begged to apoloWhat he would venture to suggest was, gize for not answering the noble Earl's that Mr. Sturges Bourne's Act should be question when he spoke before. He must made applicable to the parishes in the say that he had not received any commetropolis, and to the great towns through-plaints from country parishes against the out the Kingdom, repealing the local en system as it now existed. Having adactments by which parishes in these towns mitted this, however, he should be exare governed, by one single short enact- cused adding that the noble Earl must be ment. He thought this would lead gra- aware, that in the country a great deal of dually to a change, and all changes of dissatisfaction and discontent prevailed. this nature ought to be progressive. In And with respect to the noble Earl's sugthe interim between the present and the gestion, as to adopting the Bill only for next Parliament, the Bill might be ex- those towns from whence complaints had amined and considered. He was anxious sprung, he really saw no means of doing to see property duly represented in pa- that, except by naming the towns in the risbes. In the Reform Bill the principle Bill—a course to which he would not give of property, as well as population, was re- his assent. It was not compulsory on garded; and he thought that property any parish to adopt the Bill; on the conought to be also attended to in any mea- trary it was expressly provided, that a masure proposed to alter the law respecting jority of rate payers must agree to it bethe regulation of Select Vestries. fore it could be adopted.

Viscount Melbourne was not prepared The Earl of Falmouth considered it to adopt the suggestion of the noble Earl, would be quite easy to apply the Bill to not having considered what would be the the large towns and cities where the evils effect of repealing the local Acts alluded to. complained of were said to prevail. This He was quite sure, however, that the effect would be limiting the remedy to the disease. of the noble Earl's recommendation would But he must persist in objecting to exbe, to create great dissatisfaction if their tending the Bill to rural parishes. Lordships were to attempt to carry it into The Amendment of the Earl of Hadexecution by compulsory means, and he dington agreed to. was convinced Mr. Sturges Bourne's Act On the qualification clause being read, would never be voluntarily adopted. He The Earl of Delawarr said, he rose to felt all the inconvenience of discussing this propose an amendment by adopting which question at the end of the Session, and ibere would be introduced a graduated he concurred in what the noble Earl had scale of voting agreeably to property, stated as to the all-engrossing subject which varying from one vote to six, which he had necessarily occupied their Lordships' was prepared to contend was necessary, minds, to the exclusion of other important in order to give a due and proper intopics-so that the attention which they fluence to property. He knew ihat in required had not been given to them. He the parish of St. George, Hanover-square, begged to add, that he felt the necessity the system of the Select Vestry worked of passing the Bill, in order to prevent well, and to the satisfaction of the inhabiembarrassment, which he apprehended tants. He thought that property was not might arise ; and, at all events, it would sufficiently regarded in the Bill, and that put an end to that dissatisfaction which great mischief would ensue were it adopted was felt, as he had already stated, and in its present shape. He should move, which he assured their Lordships was felt that the amendment made in the Select to a great extent.

Committee as follows be part of the Bill; The Earl of Falmouth said, he must re- And, be it further enacted, that in the peat his objections to adopting the Bill in election of all such vestrymen and auditors, VOL. VII. { Series

2 E

every inhabitant who shall, by the last | Brandon (Hamilton) Erskine rate which shall have been made for the MARQUISes. Dunally

Boyle (Cork) relief of the poor, have been assessed and Lansdown


Panmure charged upon or in respect of any annual


Flowden rent, profit, or value not amounting to 501.


Sefton shall have and be entitled to give one vote, Cawdor

Sundridge (Argyll) and no more; and every inhabitant who Carlisle

De Clifford shall in such last rate bave been assessed Cowper

Suffield or charged upon, or in respect of any an


Belhaven nual rent or rents, profit or value, amount- Grey,


Melbourne ing to 501. or upwards (whether in one, or


Stafford in more than one sum or charge) shall have, Gosford

Chaworth (Meath) and be entitled to give, one vote for every Dehester

De Saornarez 251. of actual rent, profit, and value, upon Denbigh

Wellesley or in respect of which he shall have been

VISCOUNTS. Howard of Effingham assessed or charged in such last rate; so,


Auckland nevertheless, that no inhabitant shall bé Leinster


Mendip (Clifton) entitled to give more than six votes; and


Clements (Leitrim) in cases where two or more of the inhabit


Wharncliffe ants shall be jointly rated, each of them Wenlock

Donnay (Downe) shall be entitled to vote according to the Napler

TELLER. proportion and amount which shall be Dunmore

Earl of Mulgrave borne by him of the joint charge.”


PAIRED OFF. The Earl of Mulgrave felt called upon


Earl Morley

Earl Camperdown to oppose the amendment now submitted Teynham


Lord Cliford for the approbation of the Committee.

Lyttleton He was quite sure, from the present state of feeling in the metropolis, if the aménd

List of the CONTENTS. ment received the sanction of the Legis


Gorden (Aberdeen) lature, that it would increase the discontent 11. R. II. the Duke of LORDS. and dissatisfaction which pervaded so many Cumberland

Forester parishes and so large a population. He, how- Buckingham

Wynford ever trusted that the Committee would reject Wellington


MARQUIPES. the amendment of the noble Lord, which


Skelmersdale was neither more nor less than calling

Cholmondeley Montagu upon the majority to be guided by the


Douglas minority. Every person paying a rate Dartmouth

Colville had a riglit to have a voice in the parish. Delawarr

l'arnham The Earl of Falmouth thought it was Carnarvon

Saltoun not an equitable mode of proceeding to Doncaster (Duke of Stuart. of Rothesay allow a man who only contributed 2s.6d.



Ellenborough to the parish rates as great an influence as


Maryborough one who paid 1001.


Clanwilliam Viscount Melbourne said, according to Mountcashel Melross (laddington) the law of the land, every man paying a Dudley

Ravensworth rate had a right of a vote, and the Act Manvers

TELLER which had limited that right was a usur


Earl of Rosslyn

PAIRED OFF. pation. He certainly must object to the Bathurst

VISCOUNTS. amendment now submitted.

Marquis of Thomond Lorton

Earl of Hardwicke The Committee divided on the Amend


Lord Penshurst (lisment. Contents 38; Not-contents 54 Beresford

count Sirangford . --- Majority 16,

Original clause agreed to--the remain- ConsoLINATED FUND-APPROPRIAder of the clauses also agreed to and House TION BULL..] The Earl of Shaftesbury resumed.

having moved that this Bill be read a third List of the Nor-CONTENTS.

time, DUKES. Norfolk

The Duke of Wellington said, that he H. R. H. the Duke of Richmond

rose, pursuant to the notice he had given, Sussex St. Albans

for the purpose of submitting to their


Lordships some observations respecting place in this country of late years--even the financial condition of the country. during the short time he had the honour He was aware that it was usual, on oc- of being in his Majesty's councils-withcasions like the present, to advert as well out being sensible of the very great advanto the external as to the internal policy of tages which had resulted, and must result, the country; to the measures emanating from such a surplus of income over expenfrom both; to the effects which those diture as would tend to the gradual dimeasures had produced, and to the effects minution of the public debt. He was which those measures were likely to pro- within the truth when he stated to their duce. Although, however, there were Lordships, that since the peace, the interest some topics connected with our foreign of the public debt had been reduced to an policy to which he might be anxious to amount equal to what would pay the advert—although there was one of these interest of 100,000,0001. of stock; and he which was already ripe for discussion, the thought their Lordships must therefore papers connected with it being on their see that some overplus of income at least table-yet it was not his intention to was highly desirable. But this was not trouble their Lordships unnecessarily on all. Considering the hopes which had the present occasion, with any allusion to been held out at different times by persons foreign affairs, because he should have at the head of the financial department, other opportunities for this, and because that there should be always such an overtheir Lordships had already been wearied plus provided — considering the wishes with very long discussions. He should, which had been constantly expressed on therefore, confine himself entirely to the this subject by all the Committees on state of the finances of this country, and financial affairs, and even by the last to a comparison between their present finance Committee - considering these state and what they had been before. things, he thought that he was not sayThe country now found itself in this sin- ing too much when he affirmed, that it, gular situation_namely, that with an in- seemed to be a principle of the financial creased expenditure, and with a large re- policy of this country, that there should be duction of taxation, it had at the same an annual surplus of income over expentime no overplus of revenue over expendi- diture, to be applied to the gradual dimi. ture, or at least so trifling an overplus, nution of the public debt. Besides these that it might fairly be called, none at all, considerations, their Lordships must be being, as he should presently show, not aware, that much of the revenue of the more than about 10,0001. He said that country depended upon the seasons, and the country was in this situation now; that almost all of it depended upon confor he put out of the question those occa- sumption. Their Lordships, too, must be sions on which the Ministers found it ne- aware that consumption depended upon cessary to come down to Parliament, and taste and fashion, and upon those changes ask for a loan to carry on the service of in taste and fashion over which no man the country on account of some of those could have any control. Thus, then, the accidental and unforeseen circumstances revenue was subject to very material variawhich occur in so large an establishment as tions, the precise amount of which could this country possessed. To meet such occur- not be foreseen, and which could be prorences, a surplus of income over expenditure vided for only by a surplus of income. It had always been considered desirable, which was on this principle that the Government was also advantageous, with a view to the to which he had the honour to belong had diminution of the public debt. He was proceeded in the last year. In the preaware that there was great difference of ceding year they had arranged so as to opivion connected with this point; he have had a diminution of the interest on the was aware that many great authorities unfunded debt to the amount of 130,0001. were of opinion that no such surplus of a-year; and in the course of the years 1828, income over expenditure was necessary; | 1829, and 1830, they had produced a diand he agreed with those authorities, when minution of expenditure to the amount of they said that this surplus ought not to be not less than 3,575,0001., the expenditure increased by borrowing, and so incurring being in 1827, 51,390,0001., and in 1830, new liabilities for the purpose of getting | 47,815,0001. This difference was produced rid of old ones. At the same time, how- by three years' close attention to economy. ever, he could not look at what had taken | The Ministers of that day reduced the services estimated for Parliament from the frame of a peace establishment. They 18,245,0001. to which they amounted in had hoped, and he thought reasonably, 1827, to 16,500,0001. speaking in round that by these means they should have had numbers, which was their amount in 1830; a surplus of income over expenditure to the making a differenceof more than1,500,0002. amount of nearly 2,000,0001. sterling. It Besides this, they had reduced their ex- was in this condition of our financial affairs penditure in the last year—that was to that the noble Lords opposite had come into say, the

year 1829-30—by an amount of office. Those noble Lords, however, had 1,100,000l. ; and besides all that, they laid found themselves under the necessity of inthe ground for a further diminution, by creasing all the military establishments, all reducing the four per cents, lessening the the navy establishments, and, in short, all charge for that stock, 788,0001. a-year. the establishments which their predecessors They had, therefore, made a reduction not had been occupied for many years past in of 3,500,0001. only, but in fact, a reduction endeavouring to reduce. The estimates of nore than 4,000,0001. Having made for their establishments exceeded the essuch a reduction of expenditure, they con- timates of their predecessors in 1830 by sidered themselves justified in proposing a about 930,0001. At least this was the large reduction of taxation. They did amount of the apparent excess; but then propose such a reduction accordingly, and he must observe that the real excess was with the consent of Parliament, they took 200,0001. or 300,0001. more; for the fact off taxes to the amount of 3,350,0001.was, that the supply for the Ordnance was When they made this proposition to Par- not charged to its full amount, a part of liament, they had a revenue which was the expenses for it having been provided estimated at—and he believed did not for by the sale of old stores, including even produce less than—50,480,0001. Their arms belonging to the department. Thus expenditure was only 47,815,0001. They the charge for the Ordnance appeared had also, besides this, as he had already smaller than in fact the necessary expenses stated, the prospect of a further reduction of the department amounted to; and the by reducing the four per cents to the difference, therefore, between the estimates amount of 788,0001. By deducting this of the noble Lords opposite and those of their prospective reduction from their expendi- predecessors would have been 1,200,0001. ture, their expenditure would amount to and not 930,0001., if part of the ways and 47,027,0001.; and the difference, therefore, means for providing for the expenses of the between their income and their expenditure Ordnance department had not been derived was 3,453,0001. By repealing taxes to an from the sale of stores. However, the noble amount greater than 3,000,0001., they Lords opposite would admit, that the excess, had remaining but a very small surplus of according to their own reckoning and the income over expenditure. But then, at papers laid before Parliament, stood at the same time, they laid on an additional 930,0001. He understood the amount of duty on spirits, and they had every rea- revenue upon which the noble Lords calson to expect, that by the repeal of the culated was 47,250,0001., which was a beer tax, a very considerable increase of little higher than their predecessors had the revenue would result from the increased calculated the revenue for the year 1831, production from the malt-tax, and he be after deducting the taxes they had reduced. lieved that the noble Lords opposite would Then the expenditure of the noble Lords acknowledge; that they had found that this would amount to 47,239,8501, which subexpectation of their predecessors had been tracted from the revenue of 47,250,000Z. realized. They had hoped, too, that would leave a surplus of only 10,1501. another year would give them still better This, and no more, was the surplus of inprospects; for at that time they had not come over expenditure in a great country had the good fortune of the French revo- like this. He was perfectly well aware lution. They had, however, a large fleet that the noble Lord (the Chancellor of the in the Mediterranean, which the uncer- Exchequer) had made out the surplus to tain state of the affairs of Greece rendered be much greater, nearly 500,0001.; but it necessary to keep up; but as soon as the then the noble Lord had been able to make settlement of that country should have out his amount of surplus in no other way been accomplished, they had intended to than by resorting to a mode of calculating put down that fleet, and to bring the navy which was quite new in the financial sysestimates, like the army estimates, within 1 tem of this country. The revenue, that

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