dissatisfied with the Select Vestry system | ment and discontent with regard to the which now prevailed. Vestry system. He did not oppose the Bill, but the object of his motion was, to prevent a small number of parishioners from forcing the Bill upon an unwilling parish. His amendment was this-to leave out the words, "of two-thirds of all the rate-payers of this parish have been given in favour of the adoption of the said Act," for the purpose of adding the words, "Provided always, that the majority of two-thirds of the votes given in favour of the adoption of the said Act of Parliament, shall constitute a clear majority of the rate-payers of the parish." Viscount Melbourne said, that the dissatisfaction was not confined to parishes in London, but extended to several large towns, such as Bristol and Birmingham. The Duke of Wellington said, that the complaint, he believed, chiefly rested with the metropolis. He should be glad to know, why their Lordships should be called upon to repeal Mr. Sturges Bourne's Act, which had worked well, and, taking the country generally, was much approved of. That Act had given great satisfaction to the country; but, if it were necessary to alter the law at all, why not confine the alteration to the metropolis where the dissatisfaction was felt? He agreed with the noble and learned Lord near him (Lord Wynford), that the vote for parish vestries was very different from that for electing Members of Parliament, as far as the principle of both was concerned. By the law, as it now stood, every man had a right to attend a Vestry and vote; but, owing to the large size of parishes, it was convenient, and indeed necessary, to have another mode introduced to carry on the affairs of the parish-that was to say, a Select Vestry, for the purpose of regulating, distributing, and accounting for, the rates. To regulate that matter, Mr. Sturges Bourne's Act was passed, but it related solely to the country, and let that be applied to the metropolis. What objection was there to that? Why it was said, there must be a meeting of the ratepayers to decide whether the Bill should be adopted or not. The optional clause of the Bill was, in his opinion, most objectionable. It would be cause for excitement and agitation; and he repeated, Viscount Melbourne had no objection to adopt the amendment of the noble Earl, but he could not consent to the amendment of the noble and learned Lord, or to adopt the suggestion of the noble Duke. He begged to inform the Committee, that the dissatisfaction to the Vestry system was not confined to the metropolis, but was experienced at Bristol, Birmingham, and other large towns. He was anxious to remedy the evils which had given rise to the discontent which now pervaded so many parishes. Abuses to a considerable extent were complained of, and rates, in many parishes, had been increased; but he wished it to be understood, that increase of rates did not imply misconduct on the part of the Select Vestries. Considering the length of time which this Bill had been before Parliament, without imputing obstinacy to those who opposed its provisions (for he wished not to be considered as casting censure upon any one) he really thought ample time had been given to consider its merits, and he would venture to express a hope, that their Lordships would allow it to pass. The Earl of Falmouth said, he saw no reason why the operation of this Bill should not be confined to Bristol and Bir that it would be far better to extend Mr. Sturges Bourne's Act at once to the metropolis than pass this Bill. The Earl of Haddington said, his sug-mingham, and the large towns, where gestion having given rise to this discussion, he begged to add a few words. If he understood rightly the operation of Mr. Sturges Bourne's Act, it had no application to any parish regulated by a local Act, unless expressly applied to it. If the law were defective, it would have been infinitely better to introduce a Bill for the metropolis only, in preference to making the alteration general throughout the country. He felt a difficulty in the matter, because, if the Bill were rejected, the metropolis would be left in a state of excite objections to the present law were entertained, without making its provisions general. He begged to ask the noble Viscount, whether complaints had reached him from many parishes? In parishes in which he (Lord Falmouth) possessed property, he would assure their Lordships, that the system, as it now stood, worked well, and was not complained of, but, on the contrary, persons in general were satisfied with it. The Earl of Harrowby confessed that he had not paid much attention to the other places than in those towns which had been enumerated, or where complaints against the present plan of Select Vestries existed. He begged again to inquire whether the noble Viscount had heard any objections from rural parishes, as well as large towns? If the Bill were to be adopted, why not confine it solely to the towns where complaints had been made? Viscount Melbourne begged to apologize for not answering the noble Earl's question when he spoke before. He must say that he had not received any complaints from country parishes against the system as it now existed. Having admitted this, however, he should be ex subject now under consideration; and the information which he possessed was chiefly derived from the conversation he had joined in. But the Bill appeared to him open to many objections. The great measure which had engrossed their Lordships' minds during the last six months would, he hoped, be taken partly as an excuse for his not having paid that attention to the present Bill which the subject warranted. What he would venture to suggest was, that Mr. Sturges Bourne's Act should be made applicable to the parishes in the metropolis, and to the great towns throughout the Kingdom, repealing the local enactments by which parishes in these towns are governed, by one single short enact-cused adding that the noble Earl must be ment. He thought this would lead gradually to a change, and all changes of this nature ought to be progressive. In the interim between the present and the next Parliament, the Bill might be examined and considered. He was anxious to see property duly represented in parishes. In the Reform Bill the principle of property, as well as population, was regarded; and he thought that property ought to be also attended to in any measure proposed to alter the law respecting the regulation of Select Vestries. Viscount Melbourne was not prepared to adopt the suggestion of the noble Earl, not having considered what would be the effect of repealing the local Acts alluded to. He was quite sure, however, that the effect of the noble Earl's recommendation would be, to create great dissatisfaction if their Lordships were to attempt to carry it into execution by compulsory means, and he was convinced Mr. Sturges Bourne's Act would never be voluntarily adopted. He felt all the inconvenience of discussing this question at the end of the Session, and he concurred in what the noble Earl had stated as to the all-engrossing subject which had necessarily occupied their Lordships' minds, to the exclusion of other important topics-so that the attention which they required had not been given to them. He begged to add, that he felt the necessity of passing the Bill, in order to prevent embarrassment, which he apprehended might arise; and, at all events, it would put an end to that dissatisfaction which was felt, as he had already stated, and which he assured their Lordships was felt to a great extent. The Earl of Falmouth said, he must repeat his objections to adopting the Bill in VOL. VIII. {Third Series aware, that in the country a great deal of dissatisfaction and discontent prevailed. And with respect to the noble Earl's suggestion, as to adopting the Bill only for those towns from whence complaints had sprung, he really saw no means of doing that, except by naming the towns in the Bill-a course to which he would not give his assent. It was not compulsory on any parish to adopt the Bill; on the contrary it was expressly provided, that a majority of rate payers must agree to it before it could be adopted. The Earl of Falmouth considered it would be quite easy to apply the Bill to the large towns and cities where the evils complained of were said to prevail. This would be limiting the remedy to the disease. But he must persist in objecting to extending the Bill to rural parishes. The Amendment of the Earl of Haddington agreed to. On the qualification clause being read, The Earl of Delawarr said, he rose to propose an amendment by adopting which there would be introduced a graduated scale of voting agreeably to property, varying from one vote to six, which he was prepared to contend was necessary, in order to give a due and proper influence to property. He knew that in the parish of St. George, Hanover-square, the system of the Select Vestry worked well, and to the satisfaction of the inhabitants. He thought that property was not sufficiently regarded in the Bill, and that great mischief would ensue were it adopted in its present shape. He should move, that the amendment made in the Select Committee as follows be part of the Bill; And, be it further enacted, that in the election of all such vestrymen and auditors, 2 E 66 Erskine MARQUISES. Lansdown EARLS. Cawdor every inhabitant who shall, by the last | Brandon (Hamilton) The Earl of Mulgrave felt called upon to oppose the amendment now submitted for the approbation of the Committee. He was quite sure, from the present state of feeling in the metropolis, if the amendment received the sanction of the Legislature, that it would increase the discontent and dissatisfaction which pervaded so many parishes and so large a population. He, however trusted that the Committee would reject the amendment of the noble Lord, which was neither more nor less than calling upon the majority to be guided by the minority. Every person paying a rate had a right to have a voice in the parish. The Earl of Falmouth thought it was not an equitable mode of proceeding to allow a man who only contributed 2s. 6d. to the parish rates as great an influence as one who paid 1007. Viscount Melbourne said, according to the law of the land, every man paying a rate had a right of a vote, and the Act which had limited that right was a usurpation. He certainly must object to the amendment now submitted. The Committee divided on the Amendment. Contents 38; Not-contents 54 ---Majority 16, Ilchester VISCOUNTS. Hood LORDS. Brougham Fife Dinorben Teynham List of the CONTENTS. DUKES. MARQUISES. Bristol Dartmouth Delawarr Doncaster (Duke Bradford Bathurst VISCOUNTS. Lorton Forester Montagu Douglas Farnham Saltoun of Stuart. of Rothesay Sheffield Melross (Haddington】 TELLER: Earl of Rosslyn PAIRED OFF. Marquis of Thomond Earl of Hardwicke Lord Penshurst (Viscount Strangford). CONSOLIDATED FUND-APPROPRIA Original clause agreed to-the remainder of the clauses also agreed to and HouseTION BILL.] The Earl of Shaftesbury resumed. having moved that this Bill be read a third time, The Duke of Wellington said, that he rose, pursuant to the notice he had given, for the purpose of submitting to their Lordships some observations respecting | place in this country of late years-even the financial condition of the country. during the short time he had the honour He was aware that it was usual, on oc- of being in his Majesty's councils-withcasions like the present, to advert as well out being sensible of the very great advanto the external as to the internal policy of tages which had resulted, and must result, the country; to the measures emanating from such a surplus of income over expenfrom both; to the effects which those diture as would tend to the gradual dimeasures had produced, and to the effects minution of the public debt. He was which those measures were likely to pro- within the truth when he stated to their duce. Although, however, there were Lordships, that since the peace, the interest some topics connected with our foreign of the public debt had been reduced to an policy to which he might be anxious to amount equal to what would pay the advert-although there was one of these interest of 100,000,000l. of stock; and he which was already ripe for discussion, the thought their Lordships must therefore papers connected with it being on their see that some overplus of income at least table yet it was not his intention to was highly desirable. But this was not trouble their Lordships unnecessarily on all. Considering the hopes which had the present occasion, with any allusion to been held out at different times by persons foreign affairs, because he should have at the head of the financial department, other opportunities for this, and because that there should be always such an overtheir Lordships had already been wearied plus provided - considering the wishes with very long discussions. He should, which had been constantly expressed on therefore, confine himself entirely to the this subject by all the Committees on state of the finances of this country, and financial affairs, and even by the last to a comparison between their present finance Committee-considering these state and what they had been before. things, he thought that he was not sayThe country now found itself in this sin- ing too much when he affirmed, that it, gular situation-namely, that with an in- seemed to be a principle of the financial creased expenditure, and with a large re- policy of this country, that there should be duction of taxation, it had at the same an annual surplus of income over expentime no overplus of revenue over expendi- diture, to be applied to the gradual dimiture, or at least so trifling an overplus, nution of the public debt. Besides these that it might fairly be called none at all, considerations, their Lordships must be being, as he should presently show, not aware, that much of the revenue of the more than about 10,000l. He said that country depended upon the seasons, and the country was in this situation now; that almost all of it depended upon confor he put out of the question those occa- sumption. Their Lordships, too, must be sions on which the Ministers found it ne- aware that consumption depended upon cessary to come down to Parliament, and taste and fashion, and upon those changes ask for a loan to carry on the service of in taste and fashion over which no man the country on account of some of those could have any control. Thus, then, the accidental and unforeseen circumstances revenue was subject to very material variawhich occur in so large an establishment as tions, the precise amount of which could this country possessed. To meet such occur- not be foreseen, and which could be prorences, a surplus of income over expenditure vided for only by a surplus of income. had always been considered desirable, which was on this principle that the Government was also advantageous, with a view to the to which he had the honour to belong had diminution of the public debt. He was proceeded in the last year. In the preaware that there was great difference of ceding year they had arranged so as to opinion connected with this point; he have had a diminution of the interest on the was aware that many great authorities unfunded debt to the amount of 130,000l. were of opinion that no such surplus of a-year; and in the course of the years 1828, income over expenditure was necessary; 1829, and 1830, they had produced a diand he agreed with those authorities, when minution of expenditure to the amount of they said that this surplus ought not to be not less than 3,575,000l., the expenditure increased by borrowing, and so incurring being in 1827, 51,390,000Z., and in 1830, new liabilities for the purpose of getting 47,815,000l. This difference was produced rid of old ones. At the same time, how-by three years' close attention to economy. ever, he could not look at what had taken The Ministers of that day reduced the It services estimated for Parliament from the frame of a peace establishment. They 18,245,000l. to which they amounted in had hoped, and he thought reasonably, 1827, to 16,500,000l. speaking in round that by these means they should have had numbers, which was their amount in 1830; a surplus of income over expenditure to the making a difference of more than 1,500,000l. amount of nearly 2,000,000l. sterling. It Besides this, they had reduced their ex- was in this condition of our financial affairs penditure in the last year-that was to that the noble Lords opposite had come into say, the year 1829-30-by an amount of office. Those noble Lords, however, had 1,100,000l.; and besides all that, they laid found themselves under the necessity of inthe ground for a further diminution, by creasing all the military establishments, all reducing the four per cents, lessening the the navy establishments, and, in short, all charge for that stock, 788,000l. a-year. the establishments which their predecessors They had, therefore, made a reduction not had been occupied for many years past in of 3,500,000l. only, but in fact, a reduction endeavouring to reduce. The estimates of more than 4,000,000l. Having made for their establishments exceeded the essuch a reduction of expenditure, they con- timates of their predecessors in 1830 by sidered themselves justified in proposing a about 930,000l. At least this was the large reduction of taxation. They did amount of the apparent excess; but then propose such a reduction accordingly, and he must observe that the real excess was with the consent of Parliament, they took 200,000l. or 300,000l. more; for the fact off taxes to the amount of 3,350,000l. was, that the supply for the Ordnance was When they made this proposition to Par-not charged to its full amount, a part of liament, they had a revenue which was the expenses for it having been provided estimated at-and he believed did not for by the sale of old stores, including even produce less than-50,480,0001. Their expenditure was only 47,815,000. They had also, besides this, as he had already stated, the prospect of a further reduction by reducing the four per cents to the amount of 788,000l. By deducting this prospective reduction from their expenditure, their expenditure would amount to 47,027,000l.; and the difference, therefore, between their income and their expenditure was 3,453,000l. By repealing taxes to an amount greater than 3,000,000l., they had remaining but a very small surplus of income over expenditure. But then, at the same time, they laid on an additional duty on spirits, and they had every reason to expect, that by the repeal of the beer tax, a very considerable increase of the revenue would result from the increased production from the malt-tax, and he believed that the noble Lords opposite would acknowledge; that they had found that this expectation of their predecessors had been realized. They had hoped, too, that another year would give them still better prospects; for at that time they had not had the good fortune of the French revolution. They had, however, a large fleet in the Mediterranean, which the uncertain state of the affairs of Greece rendered it necessary to keep up; but as soon as the settlement of that country should have been accomplished, they had intended to put down that fleet, and to bring the navy estimates, like the army estimates, within arms belonging to the department. Thus the charge for the Ordnance appeared smaller than in fact the necessary expenses of the department amounted to; and the difference, therefore, between the estimates of the noble Lords opposite and those of their predecessors would have been 1,200,000Z. and not 930,000l., if part of the ways and means for providing for the expenses of the Ordnance department had not been derived from the sale of stores. However, the noble Lords opposite would admit, that the excess, according to their own reckoning and the papers laid before Parliament, stood at 930,000l. He understood the amount of revenue upon which the noble Lords calculated was 47,250,0007., which was a little higher than their predecessors had calculated the revenue for the year 1831, after deducting the taxes they had reduced. Then the expenditure of the noble Lords would amount to 47,239,8507, which subtracted from the revenue of 47,250,000l. would leave a surplus of only 10,1501. This, and no more, was the surplus of income over expenditure in a great country like this. He was perfectly well aware that the noble Lord (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) had made out the surplus to be much greater, nearly 500,000.; but then the noble Lord had been able to make out his amount of surplus in no other way than by resorting to a mode of calculating which was quite new in the financial system of this country. The revenue, that |