mere passage for our redundant population to the United States. At present, in consequence of the disabilities under which the Canadas were labouring, the strongest inducements were held out to emigrants to pass over to these States. He would suggest that Government should give up the clergy reserves, which, without being available to the clergy to any great extent, were great bars to the cultivation and improvement of the country. It might afterwards be a subject of consideration what provision should be made for the clergy. As to the propriety of leaving every sect to take care of its own Church, he would give no opinion at present; it was undoubtedly a question of much difficulty, but as he had himself been in colonies where the various sects lived in the utmost harmony, he should be disposed to consider it unwise to give a dominant power to one sect which was likely to disturb that harmony. The House had a proof of this evil in that unhappy country, Ireland. He had been pleased to hear the right hon, Baronet (Sir George Murray) repeat the liberal opinions which all who knew him were convinced he entertained with respect to the colonies. Mr. Hume in moving the petition be printed, apologized to the House for having omitted to mention, that the petitioners considered themselves the best judges as to what was to be done with the clergy reserves, and they prayed they might be allowed to make such arrangements as they thought proper with regard to them. Petition to be printed. time for carrying the Bill into operation for a late period; he would say June next; that in the interim they might have an opportunity of considering its provisions, and, if necessary, of introducing a measure for further improving them. Lord Althorp observed, in reply to the hon. Member, that it seemed extremely desirable, to those better informed on the subject than he was, that the Bill should come into operation in the beginning of the year. If it did not come into operation in January, 1832, it would postpone, most probably, the Bill till 1833, although all admitted the defectiveness of the present system, and that those defects called loudly and promptly for remedy. All admitted, too, that the Bill would remedy many of the evils of the system. It was probable, however, that there might be improvements suggested, and amendments hereafter made; yet the passing of the Bill now, to take effect in January, 1832, would be no greater impediment to those amendments than passing it with a clause not to take effect until June, 1832. It would, he was informed, too, be highly inconvenient that the Bill should come into operation in the middle of the year. As all were of opinion that it was highly desirable the improvements introduced by the Bill should take place, he, should press the clause for giving the Bill effect in the commencement of 1832. Sir Charles Wetherell said, the proposition made by his hon. friend was a most reasonable one, and he was surprised at the disposition of Ministers to press a very important measure through its stages when the patronage of the Lord Chancellor the BANKRUPTCY COURT BILL COM- nomination of all the registrars and assigMITTEE SECOND DAY.] The Attorney-nees, was to take place immediately, while General moved the Order of the Day for the House again resolving itself into a Committee on this Bill. Mr. Freshfield would take the opportunity of making a suggestion to the noble Lord, which might have the effect of removing any further objections to the progress of the Bill at present. He could assure the noble Lord that he made no objection to the measure from any party motives: on the contrary, he concurred in the principle of the measure, and thought it would introduce a much better system than that at present existing, but there were parts of the detail to which he did object: what, however, he would suggest to the noble Lord was, that he should fix the the Bill was not to come into operation until January next. These new offices embraced situations with salaries amounting to 26,000 a-year, and those appointed to them would derive a right to rating for superannuation and salary, from the moment of passing the Bill. He understood that the noble and learned Lord had this very day, from the Woolsack, repudiated the charge of being a second Cardinal Wolsey; he repeated, however, with such a Bill as this in his hand, he had every claim to the title. The Attorney General would not, in this stage, anticipate the objections which ought to be made regularly in the Committee, further than by assuring the House, their salaries ought to continue no longer than they fulfilled the duties of their office. At the present moment the country had to pay seven millions annually for retired military and naval pensions, and more than a million a-year to persons who had held civil situations. These sums had increased a million and a half since the conclusion of the war. The Com that the great recommendation of the Bill, | superannuation allowances to these Comnext to the speedy administration of missioners. Persons who served the public justice in this branch of the law, was the should be fairly and liberally paid, but great saving which it would effect to the public. When they came, in Committee, to the clause as to superannuation and salaries of officers, he should distinctly show that the noble Lord at the head of the Chancery Court had not aimed at, nor would he obtain, the extent of patronage it was alleged he required or sought under the Bill, as, in point of fact, the salaries of the officers alluded to under the provi-mittee which had sat for the purpose of sions of the Bill would not commence looking into the amounts of salaries had until January next. recommended, that for the future no civil officer should be entitled to a retired allowance, and the absurdity of the system to be established by this Bill would be manifest when it was considered that a half-pay lieutenant-colonel or captain, after twenty years hard service, received perhaps about 150l. per annum, while those Commissioners, whose services had been amply remunerated were to be entitled, after one year's attendance in this Court, to a retiring pension of 2007. a-year. Mr. Hume said, he most strongly objected to the superannuation clause. It was a departure from the pledge of Ministers, so distinctly given, that they would retrench all unnecessary expense. Here were officers-the Secretary, for example, with not less than 1,2007. a-year to be appointed-why should they not insure their lives, as in other departments of the public service, for the benefit of their families, if families they had? It looked too much like a job. Divided as persons in that House were into parties in politics, and having, of course, adherents and friends and relatives, and even predilections for those with whom the leaders of parties there generally acted, it could not but be looked on with suspicion, that these appointments in favour of the friends of the present Ministry, should be taken out of the general rule laid down as to superannuation of public officers. If, next year, they should pass a bill to limit and restrain the superannuation system, it would seem more than ordinarily suspicious that the Ministry should have availed themselves of this short interval, before the passing of such a bill of retrenchment, to put their nominees out of the reach of the general measure already anticipated. In the United States there were no retiring allowances, and the same system ought to be adopted here. The public ought not to be saddled with such a burthen. He wholly disapproved of the system, as well as the plan for pensioning off the present Commissioners. They had been amply remunerated for their services, and they had a profession from which they ought to derive an income. They had also been paid fees for their attendance, and they might as well be called on to give a retiring allowance to a physician when his patient died, as Lord Althorp said, that the provisions referred to by the hon. member for Middlesex were not essential to the principle of the Bill, and the proper time to discuss them was in the Committee. It was obvious that judicial officers must stand upon a different footing with regard to superannuation allowances from other civil officers. If the Judges were not allowed a retiring pension, they would remain in office beyond the age at which they ought to retire. He should be sorry that anything in the Bill should be taken as a precedent affecting the general question of superannuation. With respect to several of the offices connected with the Court, he was ready to admit the same rule ought to be applied to them as to other offices, but in general he agreed with the hon. Member, that the present system of superannuation was a great grievance. Mr. Hunt said, this Bill did not look as if the noble Lord were following out his own principles. He had understood that it was the boast of the present Ministers, that they proposed to carry on the Government without the aid of patronage. Lord Althorp observed, that he had only said the Government would do as much as possible without patronage, for he was satisfied that it was a greater evil than good. He trusted the House did not believe they were making a change in a Court of Justice for the purpose of acquiring patronage. If any persons did think so, he would recommend them to look at the provisions of the Bill, and they would find patronage would be diminished by it. Certainly, however, he was of opinion that in all cases where appointments were necessary they ought to be filled up by Go vernment. Mr. Hunt said, the noble Lord had expressed nearly the same opinion as he had understood him to entertain, viz. that the Government was not to be carried on by means of patronage; but this Bill, notwithstanding, would give a pretty tolerable share to one of the members of the Cabinet. He must complain of the haste with which the Bill had been pushed forward, for which he could understand no other reason than that there were fifty new places to be at the disposal of the Lord Chancellor. He regretted, however, to hear the noble and learned Lord compared to Cardinal Wolsey. He did not believe him to be so rapacious of patronage and personal emolument as that person undoubtedly was, if history told the truth. of justice, would at once prevent such an Mr. Daniel Whittle Harvey said, it appeared from the objections made to the present measure, and to the change of system in the Bankruptcy Court, as if this were the first time when anything had been said against the mode of administer-ed to be adopted. Upwards of fifty witing that branch of the law. The nature of the opposition that had been manifested must produce an effect upon the public mind. One of the chief arguments that had been urged against this Bill, and the only objection that the hon. member for Preston stated against it, was, that it would give great patronage to the present Lord Chancellor. But if the measure was good and just in itself, the argument respecting patronage ought not to be regarded. To no person could the disposal of the appointments created by this Bill with more propriety be intrusted than to the Lord Chancellor for the time being. Indeed, the stoutest opponent of the Bill would not wish the patronage of judicial offices to be placed in other hands than in those of the head of the law. If an improper use was made of the patronage intrusted to that high office, the holder was amenable to the laws of the country, and the jealousy with which this House and the public always regarded any matter connected with the administration nesses were examined upon that occasion, and no person who would take the trouble to refer to these names would say that all these respectable persons were actuated by party feelings. Three of the most eminent practitioners in that Court, namely, Mr. Cullen, Mr. Montagu, and the present Lord Henley, all joined in condemning its constitution, and they agreed that it was impossible to speak in too strong terms of the mode in which business was transacted in that Court. The present Bill was, in letter and in spirit, in perfect accordance with the recommendation of the Committee, and more especially the mode of forming the Court of Review, which had been so much condemned by hon. Members opposite. He would not take up the time of the House at present, nor do anything calculated to impede their getting into Committee, but if an opportunity had been afforded him at an earlier period, and the hon. and learned member for Boroughbridge had spared him one of the many hours during which he had occupied the time of the House, he would have endeavoured to shew the absolute necessity of such a measure as the present, as also the probability that it would work extremely well, and that, at all events, the experiment should have a fair trial. against the present measure, he would say one word; and he assured the House that he would not take up much time in the few observations which he felt desirous of making. He did not think that any charge need be made on the public for the maintenance of the new Court, for there were Mr. Pollock said, that the Bill before different sources of revenue already existthe House would, in his opinion, provide a ing which might be applied to that purpose. good and efficient Court, in the place of First of all there was the undivided surplus the present defective and most inefficient of estates which had come under the cogsystem-substitute despatch for delay, and nizance of the Bankrupt Court; and seeconomy for extravagance. That was not condly, there were the unclaimed dividends, a hasty and ill-advised opinion, for he had which amounted to an exceedingly large given the subject all the consideration in sum. He knew that, in the course of his power. He had had repeated oppor- fifteen or twenty years, unclaimed divitunities of forming a judgment on this dends to noless an amount than 2,000,0001. subject during the course of his experience had been collected, and he was con-and he might, perhaps, be allowed to add, vinced that many millions remained yet. that he believed, with the exception of Mr. uncollected. These revenues would be Cullen, and his hon. and learned friend op- found more than sufficient to pay all the opposite (Mr. Serjeant Wilde) he had had expenses of the new Court. Several hon. more experience of this Court than any Members who had addressed the House member of the profession. From a very on this subject had thought proper to disearly period of his career he was accustomed claim being influenced by party considerto attend the Court of the Commissioners of ations. He considered that any such Bankrupts day after day, and year after year, disclaimer was entirely uncalled for. This and he agreed in the conclusion arrived at was no party question; at least, he knew by his hon. and learned friend, that it was that the noble and learned Lord who prethe very worst tribunal in existence for the sided in the Court of Chancery did not administration of justice. But in making consider it so; for he had, during the prethat observation he felt bound to state, that paration of the measure, consulted every more honourable and upright men did not person, no matter what his politics might exist than many of the present Commis- be, who could communicate valuable insioners. He had the happiness of living formation, or make useful suggestions. A on terms of intimacy with many of those great deal had been said with respect to Gentlemen: the defects that he com- the patronage which would be created by plained of arose from the very constitution this Bill; but those hou. Members who of this Court. Some of the Commission-objected to the Bill on the score of its iners never came near it, and he knew one creasing the patronage of the Lord ChanList before which he had repeatedly been cellor, should consider, that when a new engaged, in which one of the Commissioners Court was established it was necessary to did not attend for fourteen years. On in-appoint Judges to that Court; and therevestigation it would be found, that never more than one half of the Commissioners attended. It often happened that, after the proceedings had commenced, one of the Commissioners would want to go away, either out of town for pleasure, or on business to some other Court in which he was engaged in short, the system was so defective, that no time ought to be lost in improving it. It was said, "Why not wait until next year?" but he contended, that the Legislature would be culpable in procrastinating the removal of acknowledged defects in a most important part of the administration of the law. With reference to the want of economy charged fore patronage must be vested somewhere. Now, who was the most fit person to have the disposal of those appointments? He had no hesitation in saying, that looking to the character of the noble individual who now held the Great Seal, there was no person to whom that patronage could be more safely intrusted than to that noble and learned Lord; and the appointments which, it was whispered, were already intended, reflected the greatest credit on his judgment. Knowing, from experience, that the present system was most defective, and being of opinion that the proposed change would have a most advantageous operation, he did hope that no unnecessary Mr. John Wood said, that an hon. and learned Member (Sir Charles Wetherell) had designated this measure as a gross job, which stunk in the nostrils. He wished to know whether the hon. and learned Member likewise considered the conduct of Lords Thurlow and Eldon stunk in the nostrils? Lord Thurlow had given to his nephew two offices worth 12,000l. a year, the reversion of which offices had been secured by Lord Eldon for his son. This was part of the patronage which the present Lord Chancellor meant to cut off, and yet the time of the House had been wasted for five or six nights in discussing the expense of the new system, which would not exceed 26,000l. delay would be thrown in the way of the | had been made by an hon. and learned passing of the Bill. He thought there Gentleman near him, which would have could be no doubt that in the details of had the effect of shortening the time spent the Bill economy had been consulted; and in debate, had not been agreed to by the the creditors would be greatly benefitted noble Lord. That proposition was, to let by its being carried into effect. the Bill be passed, but not to allow it to come into operation until June next, and in the mean time an opportunity would be afforded of making inquiries, and any alterations that might be thought desirable might be made. The Bill had not been brought under the attention of the House of Commons at a time when proper consideration could be given to it, and when an investigation of the subject, in all its details, could take place. The hon. member for Colchester observed, that this was not a new measure, for it was founded on the recommendations contained in the various Reports of the Committee up-stairs; but he would beg him to recollect, that a considerable portion of the Members of the present House were not Members of the Parliament in which those Reports were made; but the House was almost entirely constituted of a different set of individuals. He knew that a Court of Appeal, formed of the Commissioners, had repeatedly been recommended, but this was very different from having an entirely new constituted Court. His hon. and learned friend said, that the objection to the Bill coming into operation in January, would apply to any time, and that it might as well be postponed to an indefinite period as to be deferred to June. He was called, by the courtesy of the House, learned, though his professional experience had been extremely small, and yet the noble Lord, certainly with not more professional experience, said that he could not consent to postpone the operation of this Bill beyond January next, as it would lead to great inconvenience. He (Mr. Praed) had not heard any positive inconvenience pointed out, which could result from postponing the operation of the Bill from January to June. He would not now go into the question of the official assignees, upon which point he entertained strong objections, but should defer what he had to say on the subject for the Committee. With respect to the imputations that had been cast upon the Lord Chancellor, he must disclaim having any participation in them. He was old enough to know that the imputation of being actuated by unworthy motives would be cast upon those who took an active part in political matters; Sir John Newport considered, that the Bill would remedy the evils of the present system in the most economical and efficient manner. There was one clause in the Bill, relating to official assignees, upon which he wished to address a few words to the House, but he thought the most proper time for so doing would be in Committee. He considered it unfair towards the Speaker, who was oppressed with business, to keep him in the Chair to listen to debates which ought regularly to be entered upon in Committee. With respect to official assignees, he would at present only say, that he knew, from his own experience as a commercial man, that the great grievance of the present system was, the want of official assignees. Mr. Alderman Waithman said, he had considerable experience in subjects of this nature, and when the matter had been formerly before the House he had suggested alterations in some degree similar to what were contained in that Bill. He knew that the present system was very inefficient, and he considered that the proposed Bill would effect a most beneficial change. He did not mean to say, that it would not be found, after some time, to require alteration, but he thought that it was, upon the whole, a most excellent measure. Mr. Praed said, that if any discussions had been introduced merely for the purpose of protracting the passing of the Bill, he certainly had not been a party to them. He was very sorry that the proposition which |