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utter ignorance of the Bill itself, that any who will, perhaps be more suitable than such idea can prevail—for, in place of my the Lord Mayor and Aldermen—shall be creating any such patronage, the Bill ab- intrusted with the disposal of them without solutely reduces places now worth 35,0001. my interference or control. It is also said, to a sum between 17,0001. and 18,0001. that I set great store by the Bill, and That, my Lords, is the kind of patronage am very anxious that it should pass, but I take care to secure for myself out of an that my colleagues in the Administraoffice which has hitherto enabled the per- tion are against it. Now I speak in the sons holding the Great Seal to provide for presence of my noble friend at the head the several members of their families, and of his Majesty's Government–certainly out of which the family of Lord Thurlow a most insignificant sort of person in have been in possession of great ad- the Administration-and in the presence vantages, having held sinecure of of my noble friend the Secretary of State 10,0001. per annum for nearly half a cen- for the Home Department-certainly tury. All of that, my Lords, I have abso- another most insignificant personage in lutely relinquished; so that if any person Administration; yet in the presence of who ever held the Great Seal is liable to those two most influential of my colleagues be charged with a love of patronage and do I speak it—and I put it to them if, a close adherence to the advantages of his since I commenced these Law Reforms, I place, I think I am not the person. I have not explained each of the measures have further to observe, my Lords, that I proposed to introduce personally to them? several of my predecessors in the office of I ask them if, besides my communicaLord Chancellor have been enabled to tions in the Cabinet, I have not gone into bestow places upon their connexions and the explanation of each measure separately, relatives of 3,0001. or 4,0001. a-year; this and in private, both of the principle and also I have not done. It has also been said, the minutest details ? And I also ask them, my Lords, that I as the Chancellor wish to if I have ever met their disapprobation, have a hold over the bar; but I think very and if I have not altered one or two points little of any such consideration. I wish, at their suggestion ? Because, though I of course, to give satisfaction to the Bar; am the only professional man in the but my great object is, to give satisfaction Cabinet, I do not wish to stand up too to the suitors of the Court; and if I suc- much for my own opinion : and I put ceed in doing that, it will be the only hold my noble friends, before your Lordships, which I desire to have on the Court of if one single tittle contained in these Bills Chancery. The system of the Bankrupt- has not met the entire and cordial conlaws, which the Bill I introduced seeks to currence of his Majesty's Government? get rid of, certainly gave the Lord Chan- (Hear, from Earl Grey.] I did not mencellor a hold on the Bar by the disposaltion to my noble friends that I should of seventy places, which he could dispense make any statement of this nature; but as he pleased to young men, who had but having done so in their presence, I confijust drawn their gowns over their shoulders. dently appeal to them to support and conThat was a sort of patronage which was firm it. My Lords, it has been said, in constantly dropping in, and, for the few another place, that I am desirous of being months I have held the Seals, I have had as dictatorial a Chancellor as was Carno less than six such places at my dis- dinal Wolsey. To this I will only reply, posal ; but, when the Bill passes, and after that I resemble him as much in my it is set into action, I do not expect to notions of British law, as I do in the rest have more than eight or ten places to give of my conduct and character, and just as away all together. And so little do I care much, and no more, than I do in my defor the patronage that the giving away of portment towards the Monarch whom I them will throw into my hands, that I as- have the honour to serve-towards the sure you I shall be heartily glad if any colleagues with whom I am associatedperson will move, either in this or the and towards the people at large. I am other House of Parliament, that the Lord most anxious with regard to the passing Chancellor should have nothing to do with of this Bill. I do not deny it. I feel them; and I dont care if the Lord Mayor the strongest desire-a desire that I shall and Aldermen of the City of London, or not lose but with life-to have this Rethe benchers of any of the Inns of Court, form become part of the law of the land. or the Lords of his Majesty's Treasury- | There is no sacrifice of private convenience,

it to

exhausted as I am with incessant labour, ments of his office, under the operathat I will hesitate to make to advance it, tion of these Bills, in order that the and I look with confidence to its speedy Bankruptcy Court Bill should not be and successfulaccomplishment. My Lords, clogged; for my great object is, to carry to my infinite astonishment and mortifica- this Bill into operation, and to promote tion, I find, that in the opening of the Bank-' that Reform of the Law which I will ruptcy Court Bill elsewhere, a Budget ac- sacrifice all personal consideration to accompanied it; making a provision for the complish. I beg pardon, my Lords, for Lord Chancellor for the loss of emolu- having intruded upon your time; but perment and patronage it inflicts upon him, haps you will agree with me, that when I assure you that was not done with my a man has an explanation to make, howconsent. I knew nothing of it. I only ever safe he may be in the hands of his knew that a compensation was to be made friends, it is better that he should make it for the family of Lord Thurlow, and for in his own person. others whose rights were to be affected by Petition to lie on the Table. the remodelling of the Court, but I had no idea that the Bill was to be clogged with EMBANKMENTS (IRELAND)BILL.) The any provision for the Lord Chancellor. Duke of Leinster moved the third reading I expect compensation, undoubtedly; I will of this Bill. not practise so much hypocrisy as to deny The Earl of Roden moved, that it be it; but I trust for that compensation to a read that day six months. In proposing future measure and to the justice of a this Amendment, he begged leave to asfuture Parliament. Your Lordships are sure the noble Duke, that his opposition aware that I have brought down the salary to the Bill did not arise from any remarks of the Lord Chancellor from 16,0001. a- made by the noble Duke during the proyear to 8,0001., leaving it to the Legis- gress of the discussion, but from the nature lature to make up a suitable provision in the of the measure itself, which appeared to him manner it shall best think fit. Of course calculated materially to affect the rights I cannot afford to give up all that sum; of private property.

private property. He regretted that on and, if I could, my successors have a claim this account he was unable to support it, as to be considered, and I cannot be un- the Bill had been brought forward to fur. just to them; but I left the arrangement nish employment to the poor of Ireland, for another Session, as I was anxious that who were very much in want of it, and for nothing which personally concerned me whose state he had the deepest sympathy. should clog the Bill in its


God To shew the effects of the Bill as it appeared forbid that I should not receive, or that to him, he would put a case hypothetically. I should prevent my successors from re- Suppose a man possessed a property worth ceiving, the just rewards attached to the 3001. a-year, and histenants formed a Joint high office I at present fill. It is wholly Stock Company. They obtained a comunreasonable to expect that the Lord mission to proceed with their undertaking Chancellor shall have but 7,0001. or from the Lord Lieutenant; they then ap. 8,0001. a-year, while the Chief Justice of plied to Government for money to proceed, the King's Bench has 10,0001., his office and all this might be done without the being for life, while the Lord Chancellor consent of the proprietor. The parties is only appointed during pleasure. I feel commence the work without reference to assured, however, that the justice and the owner, who may have opposed it, but wisdom of Parliament will not permit the whose land would become liable for the office of Lord Chancellor to be reduced in money borrowed, as the money would be emolument from 20,0001. to perhaps about advanced only on the security of such 7,5001. per annum, if it be only on the land, account of the policy of maintaining the The Duke of Leinster said, such an unGreat Seal upon such a footing as to make dertaking could not be commenced withit an object worthy of the ambition of out the consent of the great majority of lawyers in the very highest practice at the the landed proprietors in the vicinity. Bar. At the same time I must repeat,

The Earl of Roden.-Well, then, supthat I postponed the consideration of the pose such a Joint Stock Company fails, retiring pension for the Lord Chancellor, who would then be responsible ? He or, of the compensation which he should apprehended the land would be liable to receive for the reduction of the emolu-| Government.



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The Marquis of Westmeath said, he pre- | New Member sworn. Hox, DONALD OGILVIE, for Forfar sumed the money would be secured in a

Bills. Read a third time ; Distillation (Ireland.) Read & manner which would obviate all difficulty, first time; Prescription and Tithe Composition. although he was ready to allow, the land Petition presented. By Mr. Wilks, from the Members of

the Provident Society, Corsham, for the Amendment of might be ultinately liable, as was the case

the Friendly Societies Act.
in all assessments of such a nature. He
should have wished to see the provisions of
the Bill less complicated, but at the same

Pilgrim TAX-India.] Mr. Wilks time, he could overlook that defect, in the presented a Petition from the Rector and hope that it would tend to furnish employ other respectable Inhabitants of Stafford, ment for the peasantry, which was so very praying for the abolition of the Pilgrim much wanted in Ireland.

Tax in India, and that the hereditary The Duke of Wellington said, he was

estates of Hindoos might not be forfeited of opinion a measure of this nature ought by their conversion to Christianity. to be referred to a Select Committee.

Mr. John Campbell begged leave to The subscription required by the Bill in support the prayer of the petition. He order to constitute one of these Joint Stock was anxious to see the Christian religion Companies might turn out a juggle, and extended throughout the world, but he at a lien might be thus obtained upon the the same time thought, that the religion of land to the amount of the money advanced our fellow-subjects in India ought to be as by Government, by means of an actual little as possible interfered with. He had conspiracy. He considered the whole prin- never understood that Hindoos lost their ciple of the Bill most objectionable. estates on changing their religion. The Marquis of Lansdown begged to

Sir John Mulcolm said, he fully conobserve, in reply to the noble Duke, that curred in the prayer of the petition, but no works could be undertaken without the he entreated the House to be cautious how consent of the great majority of the landed they dealt with such kind of petitions. At proprietors in the neighbourhood, and it the present moment when education was would be found that every necessary pre- generally diffused throughout India, and caution had been taken in the Bill to pro- the language of this country extensively vide against any improper appropriation of understood, such petitions attracted much the funds supplied by Government: further attention, and the consequences of their he wished to observe, that the measure being discussed in that House were likely bad been thoroughly sisted and examined to be more important than hon. Members in the other House of Parliament, and it calculated on. had there obtained the consent of the prin

Mr. Wilks said, he could have no desire cipal landed proprietors who were most

whatever to cause excitement in India, likely to be affected by its operations and where the British empire depended almost provisions. It was obvious, that to complete wholly on the influence of opinion. At any extensive drainage, there must be the same time there was a great distinction compulsory measure where the consent of between tolerating the religions of the many persons had to be procured, or there country, and sanctioning a custom by which would be no drainage at all.

pilgrim fanciers collected together a numViscount Lorton said, the Bill had been ber of unhappy devotees from districts of brought forward under the plausible pre- the country, and received a sum of money text of furnishing employment for the

for each. he feared it would fail in that object, while

Sir Charles Forbes said, the petition its worst feature, the invasion of private just presented referred to a practice of property, would be effectual. On that great importance, and the collection of account he must object to it

revenue from such a source was extremely The House divided on the Original objectionable. Motion : Ayes 38; Noes 20-Majority

Mr. Cutlar Fergusson observerl, that 18. Bill read a third time and passed,

the petition stated, that the Hindoos lust

their inheritance on being converted to HOUSE OF COMMONS,

Christianity, but he could declare, that

there was no one instance of a native being Friday, October 14, 1831.

deprived of his inheritance from such a MINUTES.] New Writs ordered. For Tavistock, in the

Cause, and he would further affirm, that room of Lord WILLIAM RUSSELL, who had accepted the Chiltern Hundreds.

there was not a Court within the provinces

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ruled by the East-India Company which Legislators could redress the grievances would enforce such a law.

of their constituents without being Mr. Astell remarked, that any discussion compelled to come to this country for on such a question could not advance the the purpose. This would be going at object of the petitioners. He believed once to the root of the evil, for it was that object could be best obtained by plainly impossible the present state of avoiding all angry discussion.

affairs could long remain, as the House Mr. James E. Gordon said, he thought of Assembly of Canada, although unanithe connection of British authorities with mous on the subject of these grievances, the ceremonies of Pagan Idolatry involved did not possess the power to remedy them. a dereliction of Christian principles on the The principal complaints contained in the part of the Anglo-Indian government, petition, related to the Legislative Councils, which was at once a reflection on the which the petitioners affirm are composed nation, and a proof that it was not sincere in such a manner as to be wholly detached in professions of Christianity. He entirely from the rest of the colony, being conagreed with the petitioners, that the man- nected with it by no ties of property, of agement of Pagan Temples ought to be birth or affection. The petitioners also left to Pagans themselves, and that all complained of the judicial system, but he sanction of idolatrous ceremonies should was happy to say, this part of the combe withheld by a Christian Government. plaint was in part remedied by disconnectPetition to be printed.

ing the Judges from political affairs. The

petitioners also complained of the clergy The CANADAS.] Mr. Labouchere pre- preserves of land, and the alienation of sented a Petition from the Commons of lands belonging to the Jesuits College at Lower Canada, in Provincial Parliament Montreal. He adverted to these specific assembled, praying for the repeal of the complaints to show how necessary it was Act, 6th George 4th, providing for the ex- that the colonies should manage their own tension of feudal and seigniorial rights affairs, and he entreated the House to and burthens on land in the said province. consider whether the time had not arrived As the House had already taken measures when the whole system of colonization to obviate the evils which had resulted ought to be thoroughly investigated, and the from that Act, he only presented this connection between them and the mother petition to call the attention of the House country established on a more liberal footto a most striking instance of the mischiefs ing, while means were taken to improve which might be inflicted on a colony by the institutions of the colonies themselves. misinformed and hasty legislation. The By some measures of this kind they might, evils resulting from the Act had been re- perhaps, put an end to those feelings of paired so far as the power of the House irritation which had so long existed in the extended, but property to a large extent minds of the colonists. He firmly believed had been lost and sacrificed by the conse- this could be done, and that the inhabitants quences resulting from that Act.

of the Canadas, who now amounted to Petition to be printed.

1,000,000 souls, might enjoy as much Mr. Labouchere had to present another happiness under the sway of the British Petition from the House of Assembly of monarchy as could be enjoyed by the Lower Canada, which was agreed to una- citizens of any State of the world. But nimously, and comprised a long list of to attain this great end it was necessary grievances, from which they prayed redress that the institutions of the colonies should from the House of Commons. He would be adapted to the state of society existing not fatigue the House by going through therein. There were no materials out of these grievances at large, which it was not which to raise an aristocracy in the likely many hon. Gentlemen would com- Canadas; there were no great and wealthy prehend or pay attention to; but from landed proprietors; the inhabitants were this very circumstance he derived the all of nearly equal property and perfectly strong argument, and which also was the of equal rights; from this foundation he prayer of the petition, that it was most and they considered that the British Constiadvisable to meet the evils effectually of tution, as divided into three branches, was which the petitioners complained, by ena- not applicable to their peculiar situation. bling the colonies to manage their own con- He begged distinctly to declare, however, cerns in their own way, so that the colonial that he was firmly attached to that

Constitution as it existed here, but what , noble Lord who had succeeded him. The he meant to say was, that there were cer- colonists made no complaints against their tain communities in which the materials for governors, as connected with their present thegradations of ranks on which its founda- institutions, but they complained that these tions rested were not to be met with, and institutions required amendment. The he considered the Canadas in that situation. colonists expressed no distrust in the To prove that these sentiments were correct, administration of the colonial department he would state the fact, that in British North in this country, and he was certain their America, out of 1,000,000 inhabitants, confidence was retained, and with that view there were 200,000 landed proprietors; a he would conclude by entreating his greater number in proportion to the popu- noble friend, at the head of that departlation than existed in any other part of ment, not to attempt to trifle or neglect the world. The institutions of any coun- this great question, but to look forthwith try must be so regulated, if good govern- into the whole state of the British colonies ment was to be the result, that they must with an earnest desire to redress their meet the wants, and be applicable to the grievances and improve their institutions. habits of the people living under them. As he understood his hon. friend, the The House must not, therefore, be scared member for Middlesex, had a petition to by the phantom of democracy, when present from the other province of Canada, there were no materials to set up the sub- on the subject of the clergy reserves, he stance of an aristocracy. If an attempt would take the present opportunity to was made to create one, it could only end declare, that it was absolutely necessary in an odious oligarchy. He had the for the peace of the colonies, that an end high authority of Mr. Pitt for saying, that should be put to the pretensions of the no materials for an aristocracy existed in Church of England, and a perfect rethe Canadas, and though a real aristocracy ligious equality established. He was a was a blessing, yet a sham one, having friend to that Church in this country, no root in the soil or property of the coun- where the majority of the people professed try, was the greatest curse that could be its doctrines, but the case was different in fastened upon a community which had the Canadas, and it was perfect madness no sympathy with such an institution. to attempt to build up an Established He was, therefore, fully convinced, that Church there. The sooner the attempt our only permanent chance of going on was abandoned the better. well with the colonies was, to put the Viscount Howick said, he entirely agreed Legislative Councils on a different footing, with his hon.friend, that a petition coming and introduce the principle of election unanimously from the House of Assembly into them. This was the form of the con- of Lower Canada was entitled to the best stitution of our old American colonies, consideration and attention of that House. which enjoyed the most popular institu- He also concurred with his hon. friend, that tions in the world. He had always resisted the Colonial Legislatures ought to be inthe application of principles drawn from trusted with the internal management of the the United States, when applied to Eng-affairs of their respective colonies, and that land, from the very different circumstances it was for the interest of all parties that and habits of the two countries, but it was every means should be adopted, which equally wrony to assert, that because in could tend towards increasing the happiEngland, from the gradations of ranks ness, wealth, and commerce of the coloand privileges, and the state of society, nists. These were the principles which it was impossible to revert wholly to the he had always advocated, and they were, popular principle, that therefore that he was happy to say, the principles which principle must not be resorted to in our guided the Administration of which he colonies where the materials and construc- formed so humble a part. The only case tion of society were so wholly different. in which the House had been called upon He was bound in justice to declare, that to legislate with regard to Canada, since the colonies had been treated in the most the accession of the present Ministry to kind and considerate manner by the right office, was, with respect to two Acts which hon. Gentleman (Sir George Murray) who were brought in for the sole purpose of lately presided over the colonial depart- removing technical difficulties. The latter ment, and that his system had been of the two was an Act to enable his Mafollowed up with great activity by the jesty to consent to an Act of the local VOL. VIII. {Feried}

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