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currence in the concluding sentiments of proper manner with which his hon. and
the hon. and learned Gentleman. The learned friend repelled the attack, and re-
House, and the public in general, he torted upon the aggressor, did him great
was sure, would hear with great satisfac- credit, and he must further be permitted
tion, the renewed assurance of the Mi- to say, that if any hon. Member in that
nisters, that they would use all the power House used strong and unmeasured lan-
with which they were intrusted by the guage, he must expect to be replied to in
Constitution to repress outrage and violence, the same manner.
and preserve the peace and tranquillity of Mr. Henry Grattan said, that although
the country. He begged further to be per- he was not connected with the Govern-
mitted to remark, that although he could ment, and, so far as Ireland was concerned,
not support his Majesty's present Govern- did not approve of its measures, yet he
ment, still they should not find him con- could not sit and listen to such unfounded,
tributing to create exasperation, or taking illiberal, unwarranted, ungenerous, and
any other course than that which would unjust attacks, as were made upon Mi-
support them under the difficulties and nisters by the hon. and learned Gentle-
perils which at present beset the country, man, who had gone so far as to assert hat
in every way that he could, consistently there was a treasonable conspiracy not to
with his own principles. He was not sorry pay taxes, which his Majesty's Government
that this debate had arisen, because it had encouraged. He was convinced that the
called forth a public announcement of a hon. and learned Gentleman did not be-
determination which some had doubted, lieve what he said himself [order, order).
but of which he entertained no doubt-a He was not disorderly, and would not sit
determination on the part of his Majesty's down). He repeated that he did not be-
Government to do impartial justice, and lieve what the hon. and learned Member
preserve the

of the country.

had said was his sincere opinion, because, Mr. James E. Gordon said, that he felt if he had been serious in it, he ought to convinced that every person possessed of have impeached Ministers who had the property or having the interest of his folly and the audacity to abandon their country at heart, must lament the alarming duty to their King and to their country, occurrences which had recently prevailed and that duty which was imposed on every in various places. Under the circumstances well-regulated man, whether he was a of excitement, that existed, however, he Minister or not. But the hon. and learned thought the disturbances might be con- Gentleman had not confined his attacks sidered extremely partial and of small to bis Majesty's Government. The hon. amount, when the means were considered and learned Gentleman had taken occasion by which the minds of the community had to say that Irishmen were not cowards. been so greatly exasperated. He rejoiced He would tell the hon, and learned Gento hear the assurance that his Majesty's tleman what was his idea of spirit. He Government would enforce the powers of thought, that to apply offensive terms in the law to protect the public. Ai the same quarters where they could not receive the time he must express his disapproval of answer they ought, was not the part of a many of the remarks which had been made man of spirit. If the hon. and learned by various Members, and he must also Gentleman chose to use such language, take the opportunity of saying, that he let him apply it in some other quarter, had never heard a more revolting attack and seethan that which had been made by the The Speaker rose, and said, that the hon, and learned Member behind him language which had been used was as im(Mr. O'Connell), upon the hon. and proper as any one Member could apply to learned Gentleman near him (Sir Charles another. He put it-not to the HouseWetherell).

but to the hon. Member himself, on reMr. Hume protested against the lan- flection, whether he had ever heard the guage nised by the hon. Member. His hon, and learned Member to whom he hon. friend had only answered an attack alluded use such language without being which had been made upon him by the called to order for it? hon. and learned member for Borough- Mr. Henry Grattan said, he was wholly bridge, and therefore it was very unfair to misunderstood; he had put the case hycharge him with having made a revolting pothetically. attack. He considered the spirited and The Speaker said, the hon. Member must be aware that putting a hypothetical in the terms which he employed. The case was not the way to evade what would hon. and learned Gentleman who was albe in itself disorderly.

luded to, had first attacked a noble friend Mr. H. Grattan said, he meant nothing of his, and then he attacked the hon. and disorderly or disrespectful to the House; learned Gentleman near him, and he conbut when the hon, and learned Gentleman ceived the latter hon, and learned Gentletalked a great deal of Irishmen, and then man was justihed in replying to him. turned his back to the Chair, and looked Mr. Hunt said, he could not concur in at the Irish Members, he felt justified in the present Motion until the real state of assuring the hon. and learned Gentleman, the case was completely known. It apthat there was nothing that he could in-peared, however, that there had been riots sinuate against the Irish Members, either at Nottingham, and that the populace, for their support of the Government, or after having destroyed a nobleman's manon any other ground, which they would sion, had returned to the attack the next not repel in a proper manner. The charges day, as it seemed, to consummate their which he had brought against his Ma- own infamy. The hon. and learned Genjesty's Ministers were wholly, absolutely, tleman had further assumed that some of and completely unfounded.

the persons who had been guilty of these Lord Brudenell said, that in his opin- gross outrages were in custody, but it apion, his hon. and learned friend (Sir C. peared from the speech of the hon. and Wetherell) had been most unfairly dealt learned Gentleman (the Attorney-General) with, and had been attacked in the most that he had been misinformed, for none of unmerited manner. Nothing that his the ringleaders were as yet taken. When hon, and learned friend had said would he understood, and heard it asserted, that bear the construction endeavoured to be the respectable inhabitant householders fastened upon it. His hon. and learned had been sworn in, and were very active in friend said, that bis Majesty's Government the performance of the duties of Special were not using the means which would Constables, he must express his astonishtend to preserve the peace of the country. ment that the incendiaries were not taken T'he course which they were taking was up; but the Yeomanry Cavalry had taken playing too much into the hands of the up some persons who had nothing to do populace, and would lead to violence and with the offence. He did not mean to say breach of the law, instead of suppressing that his Majesty's Government encouraged disturbances. As a proof of this he would these acts of outrage when they were comput it to any hon. Member who heard him, mitted ; but he thought there had been a if he thought efficient measures had been sort of encouragement going on for a long yesterday resorted to to preserve the tran- time, and the Government had suffered quillity of the metropolis. As to the charge the newspapers, which were their organs, which had been made against his hon. to excite the multitude to violence. It was and learned friend, of using offensive not, therefore, enough for him now to hear Janguage, because he knew it could receive his Majesty's Ministers say they were sorry no reply, he did not believe there was an for the ontrages which had been commithon. Member in the House capable ofted, and that they would do all they could such conduct. If another hon. and learn to put an end to them. They ought to ed Member was—he would not say have taken means to put an end to the exexempt—but if he exempted himself from citement which had been created. all responsibility, he certainly ought to be The Attorney-General said, in explanacautious and more guarded in his own ex- tion, that the force employed at Nottingpressions.

ham did not reach the spot in time to Sir John Hobhouse begged to suggest prevent the conflagration, or arrest the to the noble Lord, that the continuance of authors of it, but their exertions were the these discussions would do no good, and means of preventing further outrages. that it would be better to avoid saying the Sir Charles Wetherell felt called upon harshest thing that could be said of a man to reply to some remarks that had been in his absence.

made in the course of the debate. Lord Brudenell said, he would appeal Sir John Newport rose to order. He to the House whether it was not incum- begged to submit to the Chair, whether bent upon any man who exempted himself an hon. Gentleman was entitled to reply from responsibility, to be cautious himself on merely proposing an amendment.

The Speaker said, that the hon. and and the most suitable remedy. Certain learned Gentleman had certainly no right inconveniences, which were inseparable to speak if the House objected to it. But from all Courts, had been treated as if it was for the House to say how far it they were peculiarly incidental to the prewould hear the hon. and learned Gentle sent system of bankruptcy. Appeals were man, after the discussion which had taken great inconveniences, but they did not explace. The hon. and learned Gentleman clusively belong to bankruptcy. Unless must be aware that he depended upon the the fiat of an arbitrary Court was subsufferance of the House.

mitted to, the expense of the delay of apSir Charles Wetherell:I won't say a peals must be incurred ; and in proportion word upon sufferance.”

as appeals were multiplied, the sources of The Amendment was then put and nega- expense and delay were also multiplied. tived. On the Original Question being put, But this must be the case, until mutability

Lord Althorp said, as he understood it was removed from human affairs. He was allowed that the part of the advertise objected to the Court of Review as unnement complained of, arose, in part, out of cessary, for he considered the duties which clerical error, he should beg leave to move were attached to it ought to devolve on the Previous Question.

the Vice-Chancellor, with an appeal to the Mr. Herries observed, that after the dis- Lord Chancellor. The Judges of the Court eussion that had taken place, he should of Review appeared to him to be a useless recommend his hon. friend to withdraw incumbrance-an impediment over which his Motion,

it was necessary to pass in order to get at Motion withdrawn.

the Lord Chancellor. With respect to the

charge of the present Commissioners BANKRUPTCY Court Bill-Com- being, for the most part, young men just MITTEE-THIRD DAY.] On the Mo-called to the Bar, he had only to say,that an tion of the Attorney-General, the Order understanding had existed that gentlemen of the Day for resuming the Debate on should have been seven years in the profesthe Amendment for referring the Bank- sion before they were appointed Commisruptcy Court Bill to a Select Comınittee sioners ; and, if a Lord Chancellor were to was read.

appoint such persons as had not been Mr. George Bankes wished to ask the seven years, he would neglect his duty. Attorney-General, whether this Bill was To fill up the appointments in the new to be followed by another, and whether Court, a selection might be made from the that Supplementary Bill was to contain a present Commissioners, and this might be provision, giving the Lord Chancellor an done both advantageously as regarded the additional retiring pension of 2,0001. character of the Court, and also would be

The Attorney-General said, he was not attended with a great saving to the public. aware whether there was to be a Supple- The noble and learned Lord at the head mentary Bill or not; but it would not in- of the Court had now got rid of the arrears clude the provision referred to.

of the Court, and he had stated his intenMr. Pemberton wished that a greater tion, so far as he had understood the latitude of time should be allowed for poble Lord's oration, to take original the discussion of this most important motions, along with the Master of the question, than it appeared the noble and Rolls, without the assistance of the Vicelearned Lord, who was the author of the Chancellor, so that the Vice-Chancellor, measure, appeared inclined to allow them. who had kept down the bankrupt cases He wished to speak of that noble and hitherto, could take these cases in future, learned Lord with the respect he felt for , and it was, therefore, not possible to conhim and for his extraordinary talents ; but ceive what public benefit could arise from he would not permit himself to be re- these four Judges; they were not an addistrained by any influence to be exercised tional facility, but an additional impedielsewhere, in his Court, or out of it, from ment. He considered the whole scheme expressing himself with freedom, yet with as only intended to get rid of the Vicea proper tone and temper. With respect Chancellor, which he thought most impoto this Bill, those who pointed at the de- litic. The official assignees were to be fects of the bankruptcy system had done traders, or persons who had been traders. only half their duty ; they were also bound Now those who were traders would not be to show that the Bill provided a remedy, I able to undertake the office, so that it would devolve upon those who had been administered, the ouly material thing for a traders; in other words, it would fall into bankrupt to consider was, his conduct bethe hands of jobbers. The office would be fore the Commissioners ; if he deali tolersought as a refuge for the destitute; it ably fair with them, all would go well with would be an hospital for incurables--a him. These were palpable defects which provision for decayed merchants; it would required remedy, and it was also necessary be the Lord Chancellor's lumber-room, that the rights of creditors should be better into which he would cast whatever he de- secured and promoted, and that a more spised as worthless. He could not help complete protection should be afforded to characterizing this Bill as a most busy, honest debtors reduced by misfortune. A meddling, mistaken piece of legislation. Court was wanted, not alone for the benefit A jurisdiction more liable to abuse, more of traders, but for the management of the liable to scandalous jobbing, he never affairs of all persons who might happen to knew. The hon. and learned Solicitor- fall into a state of insolvency. By rectifyGeneral had said, that the measure was ing these anomalies, the noble and learned a gain of the difference between 26,0001., Lord would really do what the Solicitorand 28,0001. But it really took away the General thought he would accomplish by patronage of four places, and in lieu of it this Bill-erect a lasting monument to placed in the hands of the Lord Chancel- his fame. But this Bill was not the stuff Jor the immediate, uncontrolled, and irre- of which monuments could be made; a sponsible patronage of 26,4001. If this Bill which left all the anomalies and irreexpense was necessary, he (Mr. Pemberton) gularities of the law precisely where it made no objection; but let them not be told found them, and enacted places and penof the Chancellor's making such a great sions, fees and salaries. Such a Bill as sacrifice, when it put into the hands of the this ought not to have been the first legisGreat Seal a more enormous amount of lative measure of the master-mind of the patronage than was ever given to a subject age, who had been lauded in terms of the realm. Though it might seem a scarcely applicable to a human being. strange argument for an Anti-reformer, he His chief objection to the Bill was, that it contended that the Reform of this Bill was was a bar, an impediment to the liberal too partial. The public had been promised improvement of the law. He could not by the noble and learned Lord, a revision believe that the noble and learned Lord of the law and of the Courts, and if that would expose himself to the suspicion of promise was fulfilled, there was no branch being actuated by motives which he knew of the law in which the pruning-knife the noble Lord would disdain, or afford a could be applied with so much benefit as pretence for saying that this Bill was not the law of debtor and creditor. There intended for the amendment of the law, was no lawyer who was not fully aware of but for the creation of officema measure the anomalies, irregularities, inconve- of doubtful utility, but of certain expense nience, and injustice, produced by that and that he would permit it to be said branch of our jurisprudence. It frequently that an attempt was made to force this pressed upon the honest and innocent, mass of undigested legislation through the and as frequently extended impunity to House, without an opportunity being affraud, and indulgence to crime. It filled forded it of examining and remedying its our gaols with beggars, and was in general defects; that the prorogation of Parliaas barbarous and absurd as any law that ment was delayed, and the Lords and ever disgraced a civilized community. The Commons of the land were to be kept most wealthy person in the land might be together at great inconvenience, in order made a bankrupt by the inadvertence or that the Lord Chancellor might have the carelessness of his servant, in giving a de- disposal of two score places six months nial of his master to a tradesman who sooner than he otherwise would. He did might happen to call at an inconvenient not insinuate this as a charge against the time. The law again made not the slight- noble and learned Lord; if he believed it est distinction between the fraudulent to be true, he would have asserted it, but he bankrupt and the victim of misfortune- did not believe it; yet it was extremely diffiof those who had pursued a career cult to understand on what ground this of gross profligacy and extravagance, or

was attempted to be forced those nom calamity had reduced to in through the at this season, when solvency. By the law, as it was at present all minds were engrossed and absorbed by other topics. The hon. and learned 1809. The Judges now to be appointed Member concluded by expressing his regret would be armed with all the powers necesif any expression had fallen from him sary to come to a conclusion in every case; which was intemperate towards the noble and examining the parties themselves,could and learned Lord.


form, from viva voce evidence, much Mr. Pepys said, that the motives from more satisfactory decisions than the which the Bill had been supposed to ori- Judges from affidavits. In all instances ginate were those of saving labour to the of bankruptcy there was an immense mass Lord Chancellor, and increasing his pa- of matter which was merely matter of tronage. But if the Court were useful, it course, and this would in future be got rid was clear that it could not be established of at once, instead of being deferred by without patronage. No new Courts could ; the repeated sittings of the present Comand yet they must be established, or there missioners. Creditors would now have the could be no improvement in the adminis- means of proving their debts without any tration of justice. But if there was any vexatious delays. The system of fabrione quality of the noble and learned Lord cating debts could no longer exist, nor more remarkable than another, it was the could those evils be continued and renewreadiness with which he undertook labour, ed which now arose from the appointment and which was as eminent as the facility of fraudulent assignees, against which the with which he got through it. Although laws had been so ineffectually directed. the Bill might have the effect of relieving The Bill would effect a great point, for it the Lord Chancellor from the pressure of would assimilate the country Commissions bankruptcy business, it should be recol- to the London Commissions, whereas at lected that there was still an overwhelm- present the business was transacted in the ing mass of matter in the Court of Chan- country very imperfectly. He begged the cery, and that though one part might be learned Members of the House to reflect relieved, much still remained. Another upon the benefit the Bill would produce reason alleged for the Bill, but which •his by relieving the Vice-Chancery Court hon. and learned friend professed not to from a pressure of business, which the believe, was, that its object was patronage. Vice-Chancellor could not get through, Yet one would suppose that his hon. and though the Chancellor and the Master of learned friend meant this to be believed, the Rolls had been able to relieve their for over and over again he had insinuated respective Courts from the arrears. This it, and the insinuation had been received was no fault of the Vice-Chancellor, but with cheers. Those who cheered must arose in a great degree from the nature of have believed the charge, though his hon. the present Bankruptcy Laws. and learned friend had given a conclusive Mr. Alderman Wood, being well acreason that the object could not possibly quainted with the feelings of the commerbe answered. The Bill, in fact, would cial interest of the city of London, would greatly diminish patronage in value. Its take it upon him to declare, that that ineffect was, to limit appointments to persons terest was deeply anxious that some meaqualified in a particular manner; they sure like the present, calculated to correct must be of a certain class. The noble and the abuses of our bankruptcy jurisdiction, learned Lord could not favour his friends should pass into a law. It was highly with the same latitude as former Chan- expedient that at least one commercial cellors, because the persons appointed man should be always on the list of offimust be of a certain class and qualification. cial assignees, as none other than mercanEver since he had been in the profession, tile men could determine several practical he had heard the evils of the Bankruptcy questions between debtor and creditor. Court complained of, and those evils this The only plausible objection which he had Bill would remedy. It was said, that the heard against the Bill was, that it would Judges would be paid before they had any add to the patronage of the Lord Chanwork to do; that was a mistake. They cellor; but if it effected the good prowould receive no salary till April, and in posed, it was a matter of only secondary the mean time they would have many ar- importance whether that noble Lord's rangements to make for the business of patronage would be curtailed or extended. the Court. The separation of bankruptcy Mr. Sheil said, the objections urged to from the Court of Chancery bad been re- this Bill on the other side were all founded commended by Sir Samuel Romilly in lon its details, and did not touch the prin

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