HOUSE OF COMMONS,
Thursday, October 13, 1831.

MINUTES.] New Writ ordered. On the Motion of Lord
JOHN RUSSELL for Cambridgeshire, in the room of Lord
FRANCIS GODOLPHIN OSBORNE, who had accepted the
Chiltern Hundreds.

unfavourable to those learned persons--| The Order of the Day discharged, and something to their disparagement should second reading of the Bili postponed. go forth. His noble and learned friend had blamed the Judges of the Court of Session for not paying instant obedience to the order of their Lordships: but he begged to assure their Lordships that he had seen the correspondence on this subject-correspondence than which nothing could be more respectful, but which, at the same time, proved that these learned Judges had felt great difficulty in carrying their Lordships' order into execution. They felt that they had not the power to carry it into execution. He thought it but fair and just to the Judges of that Court to assure their Lordships, that those learned persons were wholly free from the charge of contumacy, or of holding out against a judgment of their Lordships.

Lord Wynford: I did not charge them with that.

The Lord Chancellor: No: he knew his noble and learned friend had not used those words-had not made that charge -his noble and learned friend had only said that if he, as Chief Justice of the Common Pleas, had behaved as the Judges of the Court of Session had behaved, he should have been made to answer for his conduct to that House. He was quite sure, however, that his noble and learned friend could not mean by this that the Judges of the Court of Session ought to be brought before the House to answer for their conduct. Of course his noble and learned friend could not have meant that. His noble and learned friend was quite satisfied that that House might amend its own order if it pleased.

Lord Wynford: Other Courts do it. The Lord Chancellor: No doubt they did; but they were inferior Courts, whose judgments were subject to revision. He was one of those who thought that if a Court from which there was no appeal could amend its orders in substance-for clerical errors stood on different groundsa door would be opened to the most perilous results. However great, therefore, might be the satisfaction of his noble and learned friend on this point, he could not go along with his noble and learned friend in that satisfaction, without diligently consulting all the precedents which bore upon the subject. He must be satisfied as well as his noble and learned friend, and for that purpose he now postponed the second reading of the Bill.

Petitions presented. For disbanding the Irish Yeomanry Corps. By Mr. LAMBERT, from the Inhabitants of Killegney and Chapel Rosdroit and Templescoby. By Mr. WALKER, from Inhabitants of Baintown, Ferns, Kilmuckridge, Mayglass, Ballymore, Killinick, Shathmen, Wexford County and Wexford Town. By Mr. GRATTAN, from Kildalkin. By Mr. WALKER, from the Inhabitants of Lady's Island, Cairn, and St. Margaret's, against any further Grant to the Kildare Street Society. By Mr. LITTLETON, for some provision in the Beer Bill for the better observance of the Sabbath, from the Inhabitants of Bury St. Edmond's, Newcastle-under-Lyne, the Staffordshire Potteries, and from the Inhabitants of the Metropolis and its Vicinity. By Mr. WILKS, from the Friendly Societies of Birmingham, for the amendment of the Friendly Societies Act. By Mr. HOLMES, from the Corporation of Anstruther Wester, against the Clause in the Scotch Reform Bill for disfranchising the Fife Boroughs; from the Farmers and Occupiers of Land in Pulhill, South Stafford, to extend the right of Voting to all Occupiers of Land at the same rate of Qualification as Occupiers of Houses, and from the Magistrates and Landed Proprietors of Wigtown against the use of Molasses in Breweries. By Lord CAVENDISH, from the Freeholders of Stokesly against the General Registry Bill. By Mr. HENRY GRAT TAN, from the Inhabitants of Kildalkey, for the amendment of the Law relating to Roman Catholic Marriages. By Mr. HUME, from the Retailers of Beer of Wolverhampton, Bilston, and their Vicinities against the Sale of Beer Bill. By Mr. SPRING RICE, from the Corporation of Galway, that the right of Election by resident Freemen of that place, admitted since the 1st March, 1851, may be preserved; from the 50. Freeholders and 10. Householders of the County of the Town of Galway, to provide that the peculiar Franchise of Galway may remain in the resident Merchants. Tradesmen, and Artizans; and from the Town and Corporation of Galway to preserve the Elective Franchise to Catholics in that Town on an equality with Protestants.

FORGERY OF SIGNATURES TO PETITIONS.] Mr. Henry Grattan said, the hon. member for Oxford (Sir Robert Inglis) had presented a Petition which he (Mr. Henry Grattan) had at the time said was an imposition practised on the House. Since that time, by direct application to some of the parties whose names were said to be signed to that petition, he found that the statement he had then made was perfectly correct. Two English gentlemen, whose names were affixed without their consent, complained that they had sustained an injury by the forgery of their names, and the Reverend Thomas Perceval Magee also declared, that application had been made to him to sign the petition, but that he had refused. This was a subject which required investigation. He was in the judgment of the House as to

what course he should adopt, but he | to the friend of the Reverend Mr. Magee believed in former cases of the kind a Committee of Inquiry had been granted.

who had signed his name without his consent, it was necessary that he should be known, for, perhaps the House might indulge him with a residence within the walls of Newgate. He hoped the hon. member for Meath would not let the subject drop, but have it regularly brought under the notice of the House next Session.

Mr. Henry Grattan would certainly move in the next Session for the appointment of a Committee to investigate the business.

Sir Robert Inglis said, at the time he presented the petition he had declared to the House, that the petition had been forwarded to him by post, and that he was not acquainted with the names of the parties subscribed to it. But, in consequence of the statements made by the Sir Robert Inglis said, if the House hon. and learned members for Meath and once attempted such a course it would be Kerry, he had felt it his duty to institute dragged into interminable inquiries. some inquiry, and he had been informed Mr. Hume said, as there appeared no by the gentleman from whom he had re-doubt that the names of three individuals ceived the petition, that he knew of no had been surreptitiously attached to the names being attached to it without war-petition, he hoped that a Select Comranty from the owners, but that it had mittee would be appointed to inquire into been left at several booksellers' shops for the subject. signatures, and therefore, he could not be responsible that all the names attached to it were genuine : certainly, it seemed doubtful on an inspection of the names indistinctly written, whether the allegation of forgery was borne out, for it was extremely difficult to decipher one name in particular, and say whether it was Howell or Fowell. In the Athlone and Carrickfergus cases the petitions contained the names of freeholders, the authenticity of which it was easy to ascertain but in the petition now under review no places of residence were affixed and, therefore, it would be extremely difficult to prove that the two signatures bearing the name of Howell were really intended to represent those of the two gentlemen who complained that their signatures were affixed without their authority. With respect to the name of the Reverend Mr. Magee whose name was also attached to the petition, he understood from that gentleman that it had been affixed by a friend of his who misunderstood his intentions: his objection was not against the prayer of the petition, but against certain expressions contained in the body of it.

Mr. O'Connell said, the hon. Member had only done his duty in presenting a petition which had been forwarded to him, and his conduct was by no means impugned by the complaint now made; but the individual who had forwarded it to him had been guilty of very improper and very great inadvertence, to say the least of it. He hoped the House would bear in mind, that the identical names of two respectable brokers were affixed to it, which no doubt were a forgery, for their handwriting was attempted to be imitated. As

BARBADOES AND ST. VINCENT IMPORTATION BILL.] On the Motion of Mr. Spring Rice, the Standing Orders were suspended, and the House went into a Committee on this Bill.

Mr. Hume said, so far was he from having any objection to the Bill, that he regretted its provisions were not more extended. It would be, in his opinion, the best way to allow all the West-Indian islands to obtain food at the cheapest market, but which they had hitherto been prevented doing from the opposition of the landed and shipping interests of this country, who desired to have the monopoly of supplying them.

Mr. George Robinson said, he must enter his protest against the principle laid down by the hon. member for Middlesex, as to the propriety of allowing the colonies to supply themselves in all cases at the cheapest markets; such isolated observations were likely to mislead people who did not consider the whole nature of the question.

Mr. Hume said, he was always an advocate for the rights of all classes of his Majesty's subjects. It was quite clear, that if the colonies could purchase provisions. and necessaries on cheaper terms than they now obtained them, it would lessen the expenses of production, and by that means tend to relieve their distress.

Mr. Labouchere hoped that some other means than those pointed out by the hon. member for Middlesex would be adopted

to relieve the existing colonial distress, but especially the two unfortunate islands the present evils of which were so much aggravated by a natural and wholly unforeseen calamity. He was satisfied that a stronger case for the liberality of the country generally had never existed, and therefore he hoped that relief which the circumstances of the case required would be instantly afforded.

Mr. Leader said, he could assure the House that the extent of the calamity was unparalleled, and he was satisfied that the House and the country only required to know its full extent, to adopt every measure that circumstances would permit to relieve their manifold distresses. As his hon. friend the member for Middlesex, had remarked that a monopoly existed in this country for supplying these islands with provisions, and he appeared to point at Ireland, he begged to assure him, there was no further monoply but that the supplies from that country were both cheaper and better than could be obtained at other places.

Bill went through the Committee. House resumed, Resolutions reported, and Bill read a third time and passed.

given his vote in the way which he had previously stated, he should be unceremoniously dismissed. He thought that the circumstances of this case required explanation, both as regarded the House and as regarded the country.

The hon. Member was sitting down, when The Speaker asked the hon. Member whether he intended to make any motion.

Mr. Trevor did not intend to conclude with a Motion; he had only intended to ask a question.

The Speaker said, that the hon. Gentleman had gone into an argument, and it was not quite clear what question he intended to put.

Mr. Trevor said, that as such was the case, he would confine himself to this simple question-was Earl Howe dismissed from his office of Chamberlain to the Queen on account of his vote against the Reform Bill?

Lord John Russell said, that as far as he was informed-and the question did not fall within his department--it was not until after the noble Earl had given his vote against the Reform Bill that he had tendered his resignation, and then his resignation had been accepted.

RESIGNATION OF EARL HOWE.] Mr. POLAND.] Colonel Evans said, he had Trevor, seeing the noble Paymaster of the no intention to trespass on the House, but Forces in his place, begged to call his at- in common with every friend to humanity tention to a paragraph which had lately he had witnessed with strong feelings the appeared in the public papers. In that course of the disastrous contest which had paragraph it was stated, that a noble Earl, lately devastated the unhappy country of who had recently held a high situation in Poland. He admired the spirit, bravery the Queen's household, had been dismissed and patriotism which had been invariably from his office for the vote which he had displayed by the people. He would at given on a late occasion against the Re-present, however, content himself with movform Bill in the other House of Parliament. It had been understood that a situation in the Queen's household was held perfectly distinct from all party or political considerations. He believed there were instances in which noble Lords had held that office for a long time, and had always voted against the Administration of the day. It was also a fact, that the noble Earl had tendered his resignation of this office before he gave his vote against the Reform Bill. Why his resignation was not then accepted it was not for him (Mr. Trevor) to explain; but it certainly did appear extraordinary, that after the noble Earl had made a declaration of the mode in which he intended to vote, he should have been allowed to retain his office; and yet, that after he had

ing, "That an humble Address be presented to his Majesty, that he will be graciously pleased to give directions that there be laid before this House, copies or extracts of such information as may have been conveyed to his Majesty by the Cabinet of Russia, and by the accredited agents of the late de facto government of Poland, concerning the cause of the war which has been waged in the latter country; also shewing how far neutrality appears to have been preserved by the States bordering on Poland, especially Prussia; also, of such mediation between the belligerents as may have been adopted, contemplated, or proposed, by his Majesty's ally the king of the French, in conjunction or otherwise; and of the assurances (if any), which may have been conveyed to his Majesty by the emperor

of Russia, whether before or since the capture of Warsaw, in respect to the just observance in future of the constitutional rights, nationality and independence of the kingdom of Poland, as guaranteed by the Treaty of Congress of Vienna, and other diplomatic acts of that period.'

Lord Althorp said, that considering the great variety of papers for which the gallant Officer had moved-of which some related to circumstances now under dispute, and others affected negotiations still in progress he felt it impossible to accede to this Motion. Moreover, the granting of it would produce the greatest inconvenience, as it would affect the state of the negotiations now depending between Russia and Poland on the one hand, and between Russia and all the other countries of Europe on the other. Indeed, the production of these papers would put a stop to all the present diplomatic arrange

ments.

Colonel Evans would, under these circumstances, postpone this Motion till the next Session of Parliament. He hoped, however, that the House would not in the interim be indifferent to the armed occupation of Poland.

Motion withdrawn.

tem, as advertised in The Times, Morning Herald, Morning Chronicle, and Morning Advertiser, on the 23rd of September last, should be postponed, and in the mean time the Committee recommend to the 'householders not to uphold the payment ' of such of the rates as may have become due-William Maule, Esq, chairman.' He considered that if such threats as were conveyed in that advertisement were allowed to be made, and the people were told to withhold the payment of taxes, it would be impossible for that House or the other House of Parliament any longer to exist as a deliberative assembly. Though he was inclined to regard parish politics with the greatest contempt, yet he thought that he was justified in bringing this case before the attention of the House; because, if not noticed and reprobated, it might form an example which would be followed in matters of State. When it was said in this advertisement, that in consequence of the bill having passed, the intentions of the advertisers to withhold their rates was postponed what was that but to say, "We hold the rod over you, but we shall not whip you on this occasion." If every assembly was allowed to beard the House of Commons in such a manner it must interfere with the fair and proper investigation of any public question that might be brought under its notice. He considered the precedent thus set extremely dangerous, and he should, therefore, move the adoption of a resolution, declaring—“That the course adopted by a certain portion of the parish of St. James, Westminster, in holding out a threat of withholding the payment of rates and taxes, is a daring violation of the privileges of Parliament, and a most improper attempt to intimidate its Members in the proper discharge of their duty-mischievous as an example, and pernicious in its effects.'

VESTRIES BILL-PRIVILEGES OF THE HOUSE.] Mr. Trevor rose to call the attention of the House to a case of great importance. He held in his hand, an advertisement, which had appeared in The Times newspaper of the 7th instant, relative to the passing of the Vestries Bill. The advertisement to which he called the attention of the House was drawn up in the following manner :- Select Vestries. -At a numerous meeting of the Com'mittees and inhabitant householders of 'the parish of St. James, Westminster, the 'following resolution, proposed by Mr. Ewen, and seconded by Mr. Pitt, was unanimously agreed to:-That this Com'mittee acknowledge with the utmost gra-ject had been brought before the attention 'titude, the exertions of his Majesty's of the House by an hon. Member who had Ministers in favour of the Bill for the told them that he despised parish politics. 'better regulation of Vestries, &c. now He differed entirely from the hon. Member 'before Parliament; and as the success as to the degree of importance he attached of that excellent measure is no longer to parish proceedings. Did the hon. doubtful, it is the opinon of this Com- Member think that the proceedings of 'mittee, that the meeting of the inhabitant parishes containing 120,000 or 150,000 'householders of this parish, for the pur-persons were to be regarded with conpose of taking into consideration the pro-tempt? This appeared to him to be priety of withholding the payment of all riding the high horse with a vengeance. Paparochial rates under the select vestry sys- rish Vestries had a public duty to perform;

Mr. J. E. Gordon seconded the Motion.
Mr. Hume was surprised, that this sub-