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On the Motion of Lord
unfavourable to those learned persons-- The Order of the Day discharged, and something to their disparagement should second reading of the Bill postponed. go forth. His noble and learned friend had blamed the Judges of the Court of Session for not paying instant obedience HOUSE OF COMMONS, to the order of their Lordships: but he Thursday, October 13, 1831. begged to assure their Lordships that he
MINUTES.] New Writ ordered. had seen the correspondence on this sub
JOHN Russell for Cambridgeshire, in the room of Lord ject-correspondence than which nothing FRANCIS GODOLPHIN OSBORNE, who had accepted the could be more respectful, but which, at
Petitions presented. For disbanding the Irish Yeomanry the same time, proved that these learned
Corps. By Mr. LAMBERT, from the Inhabitants of KilJudges had felt great difficulty in carrying legney and Chapel Rosdroit and Templescoby. By Mr.
WALKER, from Inhabitants of Baintown, Ferns, Kilmucktheir Lordships' order into execution.
ridge, Mayglass, Ballymore, Killinick, Shathmen, WexThey felt that they had not the power to ford County and Wexford Town. By Mr. GRATTAN, froin carry it into execution. He thought it Kildalkin. By Mr. WALKER, from the Inhabitants of
Lady's Island, Cairn, and St. Margaret's, against any but fair and just to the Judges of that further Grant to the Kildare Strect Society. By Mr. Court to assure their Lordships, that those LITTLETON, for some provision in the Beer Bill for the learned persons were wholly free from the better observance of the Sabbath, from the Inhabitants of
Bury St. Edmond's, Newcastle-under-Lyne, the Staffordcharge of contumacy, or of holding out shire Potteries, and from the Inhabitants of the Metropolis against a judgment of their Lordships. and its Vicinity. By Mr. Wilks, from the Friendly SoLord Wynford: I did not charge them
cieties of Birmingham, for the amendment of the Friendly
Societies Act. By Mr. HOLMES, froin the Corporation of with that.
Anstruther Wester, against the Clause in the Scotch ReThe Lord Chancellor : No: he knew form Bill for disfranchising the Fife Boroughs; from the his noble and learned friend had not used
Farmers and Occupiers of Land in Pulhill, South Staf
ford, to extend the right of Voting to all Occupiers of those words-had not made that charge Land at the same rate of Qualification as Occupiers of -his noble and learned friend had only
Houses, and from the Magistrates and Landed Proprietors
of Wigtown against the use of Molasses in Breweries. By said that if he, as Chief Justice of the
Lord CAVENDISH, from the Freeholders of Stokesly Common Pleas, had behaved as the against the General Registry Bill. By Mr. HENRY Grate Judges of the Court of Session had be- TAV, from the Inhabitants of Kildalkey, for the amenda
ment of the Law relating to Roman Catholic Marriages, haved, he should have been made to an- By Mr. HUME, from the Retailers of Beer of Wolverswer for his conduct to that House. He hampton, Bilston, and their Vicinities against the Sale of
Beer Bill. By Mr. SPRING RICE, from the Corporation of was quite sure, however, that his noble
Galway, that the right of Election by resident Frecmen of and learned friend could not mean by this that place, admitted since the 1st March, 1831, may be that the Judges of the Court of Session preserved; from the 501. Freeholders and 104. House
holders of the County of the Town of Galway, to proought to be brought before the House to
vide that the peculiar Franchise of Galway may remain answer for their conduct. Of course bis in the resident Merchants. Tradesmen, and Artizans; noble and learned friend could not have
and from the Town and Corporation of Galway to preserve
the Elective Franchise to Catholics in that Town on an meant that. His noble and learned friend
equality with Protestants. was quite satisfied that that House might amend its own order if it pleased.
FORGERY OF SIGNATURES to PetiLord Wynford: Other Courts do it. TIONS.) Mr. Henry Grattan said, the hon.
The Lord Chancellor: No doubt they member for Oxford (Sir Robert Inglis) did; but they were inferior Courts, whose had presented a Petition which he (Mr. judgments were subject to revision. He Henry Grattan) had at the time said was was one of those who thought that if a an imposition practised on the House. Court from which there was no appeal Since that time, by direct application could amend its orders in substance for to some of the parties whose names were clerical errors stood on different grounds, said to be signed to that petition, he found a door would be opened to the most peril. that the statement he had then made was ous results.
However great, therefore, perfectly correct. Two English gentlemen, might be the satisfaction of his noble and whose names were affixed without their learned friend on this point, he could not consent, complained that they had susgo along with his noble and learned friend tained an injury by the forgery of their in that satisfaction, without diligently names, and the Reverend Thomas Perceval consulting all the precedents which bore Magee also declared, that application had upon the subject. He must be satisfied been made to him to sign the petition, as well as his noble and learned friend, but that he had refused. This was a and for that purpose he now postponed subject which required investigation. He the second reading of the Bill.
was in the judgment of the House as to
what course he should adopt, but he to the friend of the Reverend Mr. Magee believed in former cases of the kind a who had signed his name without his conCommittee of Inquiry had been granted. sent, it was necessary that he should be
Sir Robert Inglis said, at the time he known, for, perhaps the House might presented the petition he had declared indulge him with a residence within the to the House, that the petition had been walls of Newgate. He hoped the hon. forwarded to him by post, and that he was member for Meath would not let the subnot acquainted with the names of the ject drop, but have it regularly brought parties subscribed to it. But, in conse- under the notice of the House next Session. quence of the statements made by the Sir Robert Inglis said, if the House hon, and learned members for Meath and once attempted such a course it would be Kerry, he had felt it his duty to institute dragged into interminable inquiries. some inquiry, and he had been informed Mr. Hume said, as there appeared no by the gentleman from whom he had re- doubt that the names of three individuals ceived the petition, that he knew of no had been surreptitiously attached to the names being attached to it without war- petition, he hoped that a Select Comranty from the owners, but that it had mittee would be appointed to inquire into been left at several booksellers' shops for the subject. signatures, and therefore, he could not Mr. Henry Grattan would certainly be responsible that all the names at- move in the next Session for the appointtached to it were genuine: certainly, it ment of a Committee to investigate the seemed doubtful on an inspection of the business. names indistinctly written, whether the allegation of forgery was borne out, for it was BARBA DOES AND ST. VINCENT IMextremely difficult to decipher one name PORTATION Bill.] On the Motion of in particular, and say whether it was Mr. Spring Rice, the Standing Orders were Howell or Fowell. In the Athlone and suspended, and the House went into a Carrickfergus cases the petitions con- Committee on this Bill. tained the names of freeholders, the au- Mr. Hume said, so far was he from thenticity of which it was easy to ascer- having any objection to the Bill, that he tain but in the petition now under review regretted its provisions were not more exno places of residence were alfixed and, tended. It would be, in his opinion, the therefore, it would be extremely difficult best way to allow all the West-Indian to prove that the two signatures bearing islands to obtain food at the cheapest marthe name of Howell were really intended ket, but which they had hitherto been preto represent those of the two gentlemen vented doing from the opposition of the who complained that their signatures were landed and shipping interests of this coun: affixed without their authority. With re- try, who desired to have the monopoly of spect to the name of the Reverend Mr. supplying them. Magee whose name was also attached to Mr. George Robinson said, he must the petition, he understood from that gen- enter bis protest against the principle laid tleman that it had been affixed by a friend | down by the hon. member for Middlesex, of his who misunderstood his intentions : as to the propriety of allowing the colonies his objection was not against the prayer to supply themselves in all cases at the of the petition, but against certain expres- cheapest markets; such isolated observasions contained in the body of it. tions were likely to mislead people who
Mr. O'Connell said, the hon. Member did not consider the whole nature of the had only done his duty in presenting a question. petition which had been forwarded to him, Mr. Hume said, he was always an advoand his conduct was by no means im- cate for the rights of all classes of his pugned by the complaint now made; but Majesty's subjects. It was quite clear, that the individual who had forwarded it to if the colonies could purchase provisions. him had been guilty of very improper and and necessaries on cheaper terms than they very great inadvertence, to say the least of now obtained them, it would lessen the it. He hoped the House would bear in expenses of production, and by that means mind, that the identical names of two re- tend to relieve their distress. spectable brokers were affixed to it, which Mr. Labouchere hoped that some other no doubt. were a forgery, for their hand- means than those pointed out by the hon. writing was attempted to be imitated. As I member for Middlesex would be adopted to relieve the existing colonial distress, but given his vote in the way which he had especially the two unfortunate islands previously stated, he should be unceremothe present evils of which were so much hously dismissed. He thought that the aggravated by a natural and wholly un- circumstances of this case required exforeseen calamity. He was satisfied that a planation, both as regarded the House and stronger case for the liberality of the coun- as regarded the country. try generally had never existed, and there- The hon. Member was sitting down, when fore he hoped that relief which the circum- The Speaker asked the hon. Member stances of the case required would be whether he intended to make any motion. instantly afforded.
Mr. Trevor did not intend to conclude Mr. Leader said, he could assure the with a Motion; he had only intended House that the extent of the calamity was to ask a question. unparalleled, and he was satisfied that the The Speaker said, that the hon. GentleHouse and the country only required to man had gone into an argument, and it know its full extent, to adopt every mea- was not quite clear what question he insure that circumstances would permit to tended to put. relieve their manifold distresses. As his Mr. Trevor said, that as such was the hon, friend the member for Middlesex, had case, he would confine himself to this remarked that a monopoly existed in this simple question—was Earl Howe dismissed country for supplying these islands with from his office of Chamberlain to the provisions, and he appeared to point at Queen on account of his vote against the Ireland, he begged to assure him, there Reform Bill? was no further monoply but that the sup- Lord John Russell said, that as far as he plies from that country were both cheaper was informed and the question did not and better than could be obtained at other fall within his department--it was not until places.
after the noble Earl had given his vote Bill went through the Committee.- against the Reform Bill that he had tenHouse resumed, Resolutions reported, and dered his resignation, and then his resignBill read a third time and passed.
ation had been accepted. RESIGNATION OF Earl Howe.] Mr. POLAND.Colonel Evans said, he had Trevor, seeing the noble Paymaster of the no intention to trespass on the House, but Forces in his place, begged to call his at- in conimon with every friend to humanity tention to a paragraph which had lately he had witnessed with strong feelings the appeared in the public papers. In that course of the disastrous contest which had paragraph it was stated, that a noble Earl, lately devastated the unhappy country of who had recently held a high situation in Poland. He admired the spirit, bravery the Queen's household, had been disinissed and patriotism which had been invariably from his office for the vote which he had displayed by the people. He would at given on a late occasion against the Re- present, however, content himself with movform Bill in the other House of Parlia-ing, “That an humble Address be presented ment. It had been understood that a to his Majesty, that he will be graciously situation in the Queen's household was pleased to give directions that there be laid held perfectly distinct from all party or before this House, copies or extracts of such political considerations. He believed there information as may have been conveyed to were instances in which noble Lords had his Majesty by the Cabinet of Russia, and held that office for a long time, and had by the accredited agents of the late de always voted against the Administration facto government of Poland, concerning of the day. It was also a fact, that the the cause of the war which has been waged noble Earl had tendered his resignation in the latter country; also shewing how of this office before he gave his vote far neutrality appears to have been preagainst the Reform Bill. Why his resign- served by the States bordering on Poland, ation was not then accepted it was not especially Prussia; also, of such mediafor him (Mr. Trevor) to explain ; but it tion between the belligerents as may have certainly did appear extraordinary, that been adopted, contemplated, or proposed, after the noble Earl had made a declara- | by his Majesty's ally the king of the French, tion of the mode in which he intended to in conjunction or otherwise; and of the vote, he should have been allowed to re- assurances (if any), which may have been tain his office; and yet, that after he had I conveyed to his Majesty by the emperor
of Russia, whether before or since the tem, as advertised in The Times, Morning capture of Warsaw, in respect to the Herald, Morning Chronicle, and Morning just observance in future of the constitu- | Advertiser, on the 23rd of September last, tional rights, nationality and independence should be postponed, and in the mean of the kingdom of Poland, as guaranteed time the Committee recommend to the by the Treaty of Congress of Vienna, and householders not to uphold the payment other diplomatic acts of that period." of such of the rates as may have become
Lord Althorp said, that considering the due-William Maule, Esq, chairman. He great variety of papers for which the considered that if such ihreats as were gallant Officer had moved—of which some conveyed in that advertisement were alrelated to circumstances now under dis- lowed to be made, and the people were pute, and others affected negotiations still told to withhold the payment of taxes, it in progress-he felt it impossible to accede would be impossible for that House or to this Motion. Moreover, the granting the other House of Parliament any longer of it would produce the greatest inconve- to exist as a deliberative assembly. Though nience, as it would affect the state of the he was inclined to regard parish politics negotiations now depending between Russia with the greatest contempt, yet he thought and Poland on the one hand, and, between that he was justified in bringing this case Russia and all the other countries of before the attention of the House; because, Europe on the other. Indeed, the pro- if not noticed and reprobated, it might duction of these papers would put a stop form an example which would be followed to all the present diplomatic arrange- in matters of State. When it was said in ments.
this advertisement, that in consequence of Colonel Evans would, under these cir- the bill having passed, the intentions of cumstances, postpone this Motion till the the advertisers to withhold their rates was next Session of Parliament. He hoped, postponed what was that but to say, however, that the House would not in the hold the rod over, you, but we shall not interim be indifferent to the armed occu- whip you on this occasion.” If every pation of Poland.
assembly was allowed to beard the House Motion withdrawn.
of Commons in such a manner it must in
terfere with the fair and proper investigaVestries Bill-PRIVILEGES OF THE tion of any public question that might be House.] Mr. Trevor rose to call the brought under its notice. He considered attention of the House to a case of great the precedent thus set extremely dangerimportance. He held in his hand, an ad- ous, and he should, therefore, move the vertisement, which had appeared in The adoption of a resolution, declaring—“That Times newspaper,
of the 7th instant, re- the course adopted by a certain portion lative to the passing of the Vestries Bill. of the parish of St. James, Westminster, The advertisement to which he called the in holding out a threat of withholding the attention of the House was drawn up in payment of rates and taxes, is a daring the following manner :--Select Vestries. I violation of the privileges of Parliament,
-At a numerous meeting of the Com- and a most improper attempt to intimi(mittees and inhabitant householders of date its Members in the proper discharge 'the parish of St. James, Westminster, the of their duty-mischievous as an example, ' following resolution, proposed by Mr. and pernicious in its effects." • Ewen, and seconded by Mr. Pitt, was una- Mr. J. E. Gordon seconded the Motion.
nimously agreed to That this Com- Mr. Hume was surprised, that this sub‘mittee acknowledge with the utmost gra- ject had been brought before the attention • titude, the exertions of his Majesty's of the House by an hon. Member who had • Ministers in favour of the Bill for the told them that he despised parish politics.
better regulation of Vestries, &c. now He differed entirely from the hon. Member • before Parliament; and as the success as to the degree of importance he attached • of that excellent measure is no longer to parish proceedings. Did the hon. • doubtful, it is the opinon of this Com Member think that the proceedings of mittee, that the meeting of the inhabitant parishes containing 120,000 or 150,000 householders of this parish, for the pur- persons were to be regarded with con
pose of taking into consideration the pro- tempt?This appeared to him to be • priety of withholding the payment of all riding the high horse with a vengeance. Pa
parochial rates under the select vestry sys- | rish Vestries had a public duty to perform ; they had to attend to the interests of the expressive of a determination to withhold parishioners in general, and if they were the parochial rates. He supposed that not to meet and express their opinions the hon. Member did not concur in that upon all subjects connected with parochial resolution. [Mr. Hume: “I did.") For it rates, of what possible use could such insti- did appear to him (Mr. Campbell) that tutions be? The inhabitants of parishes op- an extremely bad example was held out, pressed by the Select Vestry System had when a number of persons entered into a as much right to complain of that sys- combination to place themselves above tem, by which self-elected persons taxed the law. Perhaps the hon. member for them, as the people of England generally Middlesex, and the other persons who had to complain of the corrupt constitu- attended the Marylebone meeting, comtion of that House, by which pretended pared themselves to Hampden who would Representatives of the people increased not pay ship-money. But Hampden optheir public burthens. He looked upon posed the payment of ship-money, because the interference of any Member of that of the illegality of its inposition: whereas, House, on the present question, as most until the law of the land put down the unwise; and it appeared to him, that the Select Vestries, the rates imposed by them hon. Member must have been at a loss for were legal. something to bring before the House Mr. Hume said, that the parishioners of when he turned his attention to this adver- Marylebone had no intention of violating tisement. But why did the hon. Member the law. The law directed, that in case propose to censure the inhabitants of St. of nonpayment of rates the goods of the James's ? They had done nothing; they party refusing were to be distrained. The had, in fact, postponed the meeting which inhabitants of Marylebone would refuse to had been called for the purpose of con- pay the rates imposed by the Select Vestry, sidering the propriety of withholding the but they would submit to the alternative payment of rates. He could inform the provided by the law, and allow their goods hon, Gentleman, that he might have fixed io be taken away. He thought that their upon a parish where the inhabitants had resolution could not be considered in the actually come to the determination of light of a violation of the law. withholding the rates, if he wished to Mr. James E. Gordon said, the course bring the matter to an issue. At a meet- defended by the hon. member for Middleing of his fellow-parishioners of Mary-le- sex was a bad example to all the people. bone (of which he was the Chairman) a The precedent was most dangerous, and resolution was come to, not to pay the there was a natural and easy transition taxes imposed by the Select Vestry, but to from the refusal to pay parish taxes to the allow their goods to be distrained. He refusal to pay parliamentary taxes: it was considered that his fellow-parishioners had an easy transition from the course pursued acted legally, and their conduct had pro- by the hon. member for Middlesex to that duced a most beneficial effect, for a dis- recommended by the Political Union. position was already shown on the part of Sir John Hobhouse was sorry that the the Select Vestry to accommodate matters. time of the House had been so long occuHe should give the Motion his decided ne- pied in the discussion of such a trifling gative.
question as the one before it. The inhabitMr. John Campbell thought the subject ants of St. James's would, no doubt, feel introduced by the hon. Member (Mr. themselves excessively flattered by the Trevor) was not fit for the notice of the notice which their proceedings had atHouse. He could not, however, allow the tracted from the hon. Member; but he assertion made by the hon, menber for could not help thinking, that the hon. Middlesex, that parishioners were justi- Gentleman had unnecessarily thrown away fied in law in refusing parochial rates be a great deal of indignation. All the bad cause they were imposed by a Select Ves- i example of which the hon. Gentleman had try. He was as much opposed as any one to complained originated in an error of the the Select Vestry System; but while Select press, the words “not to uphold the payVestries existed, they existed by the law of ment,” being printed, instead of “ not to the land, and the rates imposed by them withhold the payment." Indeed, so far ought to be paid. The hon. member for from the parishioners of St. James's having Middlesex said, that he was Chairman of recommended the non-payment of taxes, a meeting at which a resolution was passed, they met to advise the payment of them.