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introduced into Scotland, so as to give | tion of the established form of Churchthe counties there a national system of government had been settled. The clergy popular Representation, founded, unlike had, ever since the Reformation, on the the Representation proposed to be intro- whole, done their duties admirably, and by duced by the Bill now before them, really forming a connecting link between the upon property, and to open the franchise highest and the humblest classes, they in the close boroughs in Scotland to the had strengthened all the ties of society. inhabitants generally of such places. He The parish schools had also been most was anxious to state his sentiments on efficient in diffusing the blessings of eduthis point, that they should not be mis- cation. What had been the result of all understood by his countrymen. this? The knowledge diffused among the people made them see clearly the faults of their system, and, therefore, they felt more intensely than the inhabitants of any other part of the empire the necessity for Reform. The old system might have been good for the time; but was totally unsuited to existing circumstances. He thought it his duty to make these few remarks on the observations of the noble Duke with respect to Scotland.

The Earl of Camperdown was glad that the noble Earl had made this concession. It was true that he had before admitted the necessity for some concession; but he had never before made the admission in such distinct, strong, and direct terms. One thing was certain, that the people of Scotland made no distinction between their own Reform and the Bill now before their Lordships. They understood perfectly that the fate of this Bill The Duke of Wellington considered it would decide the question of Reform as was quite irregular to allude, on the preto them; and therefore, if this Bill should sentation of a petition, to what he said be rejected, the rejection would be re- in the course of a debate on a former ceived by them with alarm and dismay; evening, which was to be resumed this and the noble Earl might be well assured night, and when any noble Lord would that they would look more to that rejec- have the more regular opportunity of retion than to his declarations, and would plying to what had fallen from him. be filled with alarm and dread that the However, as the noble Lord had spoken present system would in substance be of that part of his observation which apcontinued. When the Bill of Reform for plied to Scotland, he would beg leave to Scotland came to that House-if ever it inform him, that what he said was, that should come there he would be ready Scotland was the most prosperous part of to meet his noble friend on the subject of his Majesty's dominions, and a country its details. The noble Duke (Wellington) exceedingly well governed. He did not opposite had, on a former night, adverted to advert at all to the state of its Representthe state of Scotland, and had truly saidation, as it had been under the Governthat it was in a most flourishing condition; but if the noble Duke meant to say that this was owing to the state of the Representation in Scotland, that position would lead to the extreme point, that the best Government was that where there was no Representation at all. While Scotland remained a separate kingdom, it was well known in what a wretched condition it was under its own system. But when it became united with England, it acquired the benefit of the English Representation, which, with all its faults was far superior to that of Scotland. However unfavour-sentation was under consideration, that of able the terms of the Union might have been to the people of Scotland, they unquestionably gained an immense advantage in the English Representation. Before the Union, Scotland was distracted with religious parties. But after the Revolution, and about the time of the Union, the ques

ment of his Majesty, in common with the other parts of the United Kingdom, and of the King's dominions, and under the protection of the Parliament, the Lords and Commons of Great Britain. No doubt it had advanced in prosperity in a greater degree than almost any part of the United Kingdom, but though he had stated that, he had taken care to avoid giving an opinion about its Representation, or whether there should be a Reform in Scotland or not. He bad admitted, that when the subject of Repre

Scotland must be included as a part of the whole empire, but he made no admissions for Scotland to the exclusion of any other part of Great Britain.

Lord Belhaven begged to remind their Lordships, that the petitioners did not pray their Lordships to pass the Scotch Reform

The Earl of Haddington had spoken of the Scotch Bill, and not of this.

Lord Belhaven : well, then, if his noble friend could prove that the system proposed to be established by the Scotch Bill was not founded on property, he would not vote for it.

Bill, as that was not now before them. | petition and the circumstances connected But as to Representation, Scotland had with it, they would find that there were no no Representation at all. It was mere grounds for asserting, that there had not nomination. His noble friend (the Earl been a considerable degree of reaction and of Haddington) had said, that he was difference of opinion in the public mind anxious to have an elective franchise respecting the Reform Bill since the disfounded on property, and not such a solution of the late Parliament, and even franchise as it was proposed to establish since the opening of the present. The by this Bill. Well, then, his noble friend petition he held in his hand had not ought to vote for the second reading of been agreed to at a meeting assembled the Bill, and endeavour to amend it; and for the purpose of voting it, but, on the then, if his noble friend could prove to him contrary, it was assembled to vote a petithat the system proposed by this Bill was tion favourable to the Bill. A noble not founded on property, he would not Marquis, to whom a great part of the vote for its passing in its present state. town of Belfast belonged (the Marquis of Donegal), and a noble Earl, the predecessor of a noble Duke in the office of Postmaster-General (Earl O'Neill), were the dispensers of wealth and favour in that place. It happened that these noble Lords, up to a late period, always professed the sentiments of Orangeism, and their influence tended to keep down the free, liberal, and independent opinions of the town of Belfast. Changes, however, unfortunately would at times come over the best of characters, and over these noble Lords had passed a very rapid change indeed, for he believed that they ranged on the side of the late Government when Toryism predominated. They had now, he believed, become converts to other doctrines, and ranged on that which was called the liberal side of the question, and, as was natural under such circumstances, they endeavoured, as far as was possible, to collect a numerous meeting, with the view of getting up a petition in favour of the Reform Bill. What, he would ask, had been the result of the meeting summoned by the sovereign of Belfast, a near relation of the noble Marquis, who had also changed his sentiments on the measure? That gentleman came provided with all the power his situation afforded, and the meeting assembled in the great square of the town. Well, what did the inhabitants of that notorious, Radical and democratical town? What was the result of the requisition, numerously signed, reThe Marquis of Londonderry rose to questing a public meeting to vote a pelay before their Lordships a petition tition in favour of the Reform Bill? He against the Ministerial measure of Reform, would inform their Lordships of what but in favour of some more safe and expe- had occurred, as reported in one of the dient plan, from certain of the Gentry, local journals. The noble Marquis proClergy, Merchants, Bankers, and Resi- ceeded to read a Belfast newspaper, which dents of the town of Belfast and its neigh-stated, that the mass of persons at the bourhood. The noble Marquis begged to meeting had answered the interrogatories state, that when their Lordships heard the of the Chief Magistrate's speech as to the

The Earl of Rosebery wished to take that opportunity, as being the earliest which had presented itself, of corroborating the opinion of the noble Lord near him, that any prosperity which had fallen to Scotland might fairly be ascribed to other causes than the state of its Representation. It might be most justly asserted, that it had reached its present pitch of prosperity, not in consequence of its Representative system, but in spite of it. If any proof of that assertion were requisite, it might be selected from the fact, established in the pages of its history, that so long as its inhabitants were living exclusively under the form of Representation which they now joined in condemning, no country in Europe exhibited greater wretchedness or more intolerable misgovernment than Scotland. If it had subsequently increased in knowledge and wealth-if it had of late years greatly accumulated the elements of social happiness -it was only because of the union of its political destinies with England, a land to which nature had been more bountiful, and which had the fortune to be blessed with more liberal institutions.

duty of Lords and Commons with respect, subscribed to the petition presented by to the Reform Bill, by clamorously de- the noble Marquis. claring, that the former would throw it out, and, that the latter ought to have done so. Noble Lords, continued the Marquis, would see, from what he had read, that there was a strong feeling of dissent abroad with regard to that description of Reform proposed by Ministers. The petition he had the honour to present prayed for moderate Reform. It further intimated, that there was a strong body of the community in favour of such Reform; but while it stated that, it also advanced the most emphatic reasons of opposition, point by point, to that most Revolutionary Bill. The petition was then read by the clerk, and the noble Marquis observed that, after hearing these sentiments, noble Lords were not to assert, that there had been no reaction with respect to the measure before the House.

The Earl of Gosford had not been in the House during the speech of the noble Marquis; but he had heard the petition, and felt called upon to express his sentiments on the subject to which it referred. He had the best opportunity of becoming acquainted with the state of public feeling in Belfast; and he knew, beyond the shadow of a doubt, that the wealth and respectability of that town were decidedly and unequivocally in favour of the measure of Reform.

Lord Templemore begged pardon for intruding on the House, but after the remarks that were made on a near relative of his, who owned the chief part of the property of the town of Belfast, he must say, that it would have been more consistent if the noble Marquis opposite had given some notice of his intention to allude to his noble relative.

The Marquis of Londonderry said, he had written to him that morning.

Lord Templemore thought, that the noble Marquis was bound not to make those statements in the absence of the person whom he thought proper to arraign; but he would leave the character of his noble relative in the hands of the House, as he felt that his political conduct needed no defence from him. He could further say, from some knowledge of the town of Belfast, that the sentiments of the majority of its inhabitants were in favour of the Bill, though, at the same time, he begged it to be understood, that he did not throw any imputation on the names that were VOL. VIII. (Third}

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The Marquis of Londonderry was convinced, that the petition he presented contained the true sentiments of the town of Belfast on the subject of Reform. He admitted that the people were in favour of Reform; but there was a great difference between a Reform and that contained in the present Bill. He did not mean to throw the slightest reflection on the relative of the noble Lord; but he had stated the circumstances he did, to show that, though the noble Lords he alluded to at one time endeavoured to keep down the liberal feeling, they were at present doing all they could to excite it in favour of the Bill. Being on his legs, he begged leave to say, that he had received a letter from Bristol, informing him that the communication he had received from thence, and read to the House when an illustrious Duke presented a petition in favour of Reform, was written under a misrepresentation, and that its assertions were unfounded. He felt it to be his duty at the time to read the communication to the House, but he felt equal readiness now to admit that he was misinformed.

The Duke of Sussex felt satisfied, that whatever statement the noble Marquis had made was derived from some individual in whose accuracy he had confided.

The Earl of Eldon begged leave to say a few words before they went into a debate upon the Reform Bill. He must state, that one principal reason he had for not going into the measure was, that they were called upon to decide as to England, without knowing what was to be done with Ireland and Scotland, for no man could deny, that a change in the Representation of England must have a great effect upon the other portions of the empire, inasmuch as the Peers and Representatives of the three kingdoms were now combined in one united Parliament. On this question, therefore, he wished to observe, they ought not to come to a hasty conclusion with one part, without knowing how it would affect the whole question; he regretted, therefore, that their time should be consumed by arguments relating to the Scotch and Irish Bills, taken separately. They had matter enough regularly before them, and it was not wise for them to enter into arguments upon questions upon which, constitutionally speaking, they were uninformed. Petition to lie on the Table. D

PARLIAMENTARY REFORM-BILL FOR ENGLAND SECOND READING AD JOURNED DEBATE FOURTH DAY.] The Earl of Falmouth was well awareof the disadvantages under which he rose to address the House, after the excellent speeches of other noble Lords who had preceded him, but he was anxious to record his opinion upon a subject of such unprecedented moment. He felt a due respect for the talents of those who had followed the noble Earl at the head of the Treasury, in supporting the Bill; but he did not think they had added anything which ought to induce such an assemblage as he was addressing, to let it go to a second reading. A noble Viscount (Melbourne) seemed to confess, that the difficulty in the way of finding seats for members of the Government was, under such a Bill, insuperable, for he talked of a supplementary measure as the remedy; and here was one of the proofs given by the Government itself, that it would be final! Then a noble Marquis (Lansdown), to whom he had often listened with admiration and instruction, had avoided, with superior skill, the real point at issue-namely, whether anything like such a change was warranted by experience or example. He had told its opponents, indeed, that they had adopted the principle of Reform, and that their supposed projects were mere quackeries; but he had given no authority, from the past or the present, in favour of the Bill, and he had not shown, that his own panacea would cure the alleged evils. Another noble Viscount (Goderich) followed, but he, too, in what might be very good merely as a speech, had made a similar failure, and had been becomingly answered by a reference from his noble friend (Lord Haddington) to the recorded opinions of their joint leader, Mr. Canning. And then came the noble Earl (Radnor), who had closed the debate of the former evening. Having listened to his remarks attentively, he really could not believe they had any other object than to keep the House in good humour, and relieve the tædium of Debate, for they appeared to him to quarrel with each other irreconcileably, though the confusion that prevailed in a part of them, between the moral and the physical, certainly made it somewhat difficult to remember and reply to them. First, he disliked all changes, but this dislike led him to advocate the most sweeping changes ever proposed.

Then he was convinced, however, that all things in this world must change; for instance, we must all grow old. Now he (Lord Falmouth) would not contradict that, but he hoped their Lordships were not to be put in another schedule A, and utterly annihilated, merely because they might be growing old. Then the noble Earl said, the Radicals would be satisfied, but in the next breath he told the House, Mr. Hunt would not be satisfied. If he had seen the noble Earl in his place, he should like to have asked him whether he himself was satisfied; for he had said, when the Bill was first brought forward, "I am a Radical, and nothing but the Vote by Ballot will satisfy ine." He would tell the House why the noble Earl would not be satisfied. The noble Earl had written a letter, not long ago, to a Mr. Whittle at Manchester, which he held in his hand as printed in Cobbett's Register. In that letter he said, that he approved of every thing Mr. Cobbett had ever declared upon the subject, and that he had intended to have brought him into Parliament for Downton; that borough of which the noble Earl said, that he himself was the constituent unit, and where he had a part of a ditch that gave a vote. Did he then mean to compliment his friend by making him the Representative of a ditch? But Mr. Cobbett, unfortunately for the noble Earl, had addressed the people of Manchester in print. The noble Earl entirely approved of Mr. Cobbett. How far Mr. Cobbett was satisfied might be seen by that address. The noble Earl advocated the Ballot, yet the noble Earl assured them, that both himself and the Radicals were satisfied with this Bill, which, with all its radicalism, had not gone quite so far as the Vote by Ballot. He could only look upon the noble Earl's speech as one of propitiation towards his noble leader, who some weeks ago had given him a pretty severe lecture, when he distinctly said, he was dissatisfied, and could not be otherwise without the Vote by Ballot. With regard

to the speech of the noble Earl at the head of the Government, he had heard it with astonishment and regret, as containing all that could be urged in favour of the violent and dangerous measure, for which he had confessed that, he more than any other man, was responsible. He never heard a more striking illustration of the difference between an oratorical effort, and that sound reasoning which it ought

to contain. That younger politicians, of rational men, by asserting that this Bill is, unused to power, should think them- for the preservation of a system composed selves qualified, when suddenly thrown of King, Lords, and Commons. America, into office, to write down old Constitutions, the darling example of the demagogues, and create new ones, or that those who had had a Republic about as old as the noble at once consented to abandon the princi- Earl's (Grey) political life. They had in ples of the deceased leader, towards whom England a Monarchy in its present form they had professed an almost filial affec- (dating from 1688), about three times as old. tion-that these politicians should rush He would say, choose between them if you into mere experiments, even upon the most please, but as to the anomalies that are so vital subjects, might not be very surprising; objectionable, recollect, America has also but, although he had searched in vain in her anomalies. In the American Constithe mass of debates elsewhere for a single tution, before any change could be even statesmanlike argument to recommend proposed, the assent of two-thirds of both them, he had to the last been unable to Houses of Congress must be obtained, and persuade himself that the noble Earl too, afterwards it could not be adopted withscholar as he was, historian as he was out the concurrence of three-fourths of the known to be, would not be able to point federal States. Here, then, was a conserout a single example, ancient or modern, vative principle in a pure democracy. The of such a constitution as the Bill, if passed, framers of the American Constitution would engender. True it was, that the knew well the principle of change to be arguments used elsewhere, had there put found in the fickleness of the people, and on their gawdy gowns; they had been that violent changes are the greatest of clothed in the language for which the national calamities. Though they prefernoble Earl was so distinguished, and which red a Republic to the Monarchy under which might well form a veil impervious to they were smarting, they guarded against common eyes; but to their Lordships it entire dependance upon popular feeling; would not be impenetrable; and he would they adopted the principle of settlement, confidently ask them, whether, when strip- and they did wisely. But what would this ped of the eloquence in which his speech Bill do here? Would it settle any thing? had been arrayed, it was not, like all the would it not unsettle every thing? he rest, a speech of unsupported theory, and was astonished that any man could read it unproved expediency. Where were his without seeing a principle of mutability statesmanlike appeals to history for so in every page of it. What did the Amerisudden, so desperate a change? Where cans themselves say of it? His noble were his precedents? In England, in the friend (Lord Haddington) had read some seventeenth century, or in France, in these passages last evening from an American our days? In the past or in the present? work, published in July, at Boston, and In the records of nations, or even the called, The Prospect of Reform in Europe, opinions of eminent individuals? He had proving, that this Bill had either no prinquoted Mr. Pitt and Mr. Fox as friends ciple at all, or that it was founded on to Reform; but had he ventured to say, what had been aptly called the Rule of that either of those great men had ever Three system. Those passages were undreamt of such a measure as that? He answerable, but if he had gone further he should have shown, that an assembly ex- would have found others still more applicable clusively democratic ever did or could work to the question as affecting the Monarchy, well in conjunction with a Monarchy andan the House of Lords, and the Church EstabAristocracy; that the power of the public lishment. It was a republican book, of purse alone in the hands of such an assem- no common ability, remarkable for deep bly must not inevitably destroy the neces- observation, and the closest reasoning. sary balance. Had he done so? or, by He would therefore beg permission to read way of perfecting his admirable invention, from it a little further than his noble friend did he mean, that that House should share had gone. [The noble Earl then read in the control of the public purse? His whole several passages, which forcibly argued course of reasoning was obviously incom- that this Bill would be destructive of the patible with the existence of the British Con- three branches of the Constitution, observstitution Fle(Lord Falmouth) would say,as ing, that the work should be good authoryou want a republic, in God's name have ity, as coming from an American, so one, but do not affront the understandings competent in all respects to deal with the

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