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tual, and many parties would then be ducements to men of reputation to become anxious for inquiry, who now abstained Judges in it. Instead, then, of bankfrom demanding it, because they thought ruptcy proceedings being attended with that the case would not be properly ex- enormous expense, and lasting for years, amined into by the present jurisdiction. they would, in this Court, be despatched Under the proposed system they would at a cheap rate in the course of a few have men of intelligence and experience. weeks. He agreed with the hon. and If a Commissioner's decision were gain- learned member for St. Mawes, that the sayed, too, he would have notice that the fact of a man being ruined by a commisCourt would be moved, in order that he sion being taken out against him, even if might shew cause why he should not review that commission should turn out to be bad, his decision ; on which he would make a was sufficient to call for an amendment of report to the Court of what had taken the law. The issues to try whether a man place. Under the present system, if the had been a bankrupt or not were frequent case were decided by the Chief Justice or and expensive from various causes. That any other judge, and a new trial was evil would be remedied by the fact being moved for, that motion was decided upon at once tried by affidavits and got rid affidavit and the arguments of counsel, of, and by the decision being made upon just as a motion would be decided in the the facts before the Court, instead of the Court of Chancery. Under the present parties being at liberty to make a new case. system, in case of an appeal, affidavits The case of Chambers shewed, in a most must be filed at an enormous cost; but, glaring manner, the evils of the system in under the proposed system, if a new trial this respect. In that case, the question were wished for, instead of a mass of was brought before the Court of Chancery, affidavits, there would be only the report and was argued four times. Three verof the Judge of what took place before dicts were given on one side and one dehim. How little expensive was this course cision on the other. The case then went compared with the old one! He re- before the Court of Exchequer, which nemembered that a mandamus was once gatived the bankruptcy: a new trial was moved for, and refused, in a case of bank- had, which again established the commisa ruptcy, on the ground that the Lord sion; and now another new trial was Chancellor had a summary jurisdiction ; pending to overturn that decision. This but, in point of fact, the delays were often had been going on for four or five years. such as to ruin all parties concerned. If What, during this time, had been the situcopies of the proceedings were wanted, ation of the customers of that banker? parties could have them from a short-hand How many tradesmen might not have writer at a far less expense than the been ruined by the delay in paying the copies of the affidavits were now procured dividend ? How many thousands had at. There was now a multiplication of not been consumed in costs? His hon. fees, and all, perhaps, for nothing, as the and learned friend opposite complained of facts might at length be sent to be tried the expedition of the Lord Chancellor before one of the Judges at Westminster complained that those who found fault, Hall. Thus the winner was sometimes when on that side of the House, with the ruined; the loser always. His hon, and jurisdiction of the Court of Chancery in learned friend had reflected upon the bankruptcy, had not been three months Judges that were to be in this new Court, in office before they set themselves about and had said that they would be persons remedying its evils—evils which he himof no weight or consideration. What self had been considering these twenty authority had he for so saying, or how years. His hon. friend said, why not could he reconcile his statement, that this wait until a bill for the reform of the Court would have to decide on questions whole of the Chancery jurisdiction was of the greatest complexity and difficulty, brought on. But why should they wait involving property to an enormous amount, for all before taking a part ? Here a Bill with his opinion that it would be con- was presented, proving the integrity of the sidered a trifling Court? The jurisdiction intentions of the Government, and its deof this Court would be found so import-termination to act upon the professions it ant as to carry great weight and conse- made upon that side of the House. quence with it in the eyes of the country, The hon. and learned member for Boand, consequently, to offer sufficient in. I roughbridge had said, that it was essential


that the Lord Chancellor should have the fees abolished were considered, no superintendence of all matters in bank- ought to complain of it. The 12,0001. ruptcy. This Bill proposed to preserve was less than was received in any one year the superintendence of the Lord Chan- during the Chancellorships of Lord Eldon cellor, without troubling him with matters and Lord Lyndhurst on account of their he could not decide. The Lord Chan- bankruptcy business, except one year of cellor had always found himself incompe- Lord Lyndhurst's, when it did not exceed tent to decide on matters of fact; and, 10,0001. With respect to the objection when questions of fact had come be- of part of the expense being defrayed out fore him, he had sent them to a Court of the Dead Fund, as it was clear that all of law. Under this Bill, all matters of the suitors of the Court of Chancery fact would be decided previously to their would benefit by the arrangement, very coming before him. The mere question of little weight was to be attached to it. law would go before him, either in the And it appeared, from an investigation shape of a bill of exceptions, or of a ordered by the Lord Chancellor, that that special verdict, thus saving the parties a fund would still be sufficiently large to vast expense. It had been stated by answer all demands upon it. Another several intelligent persons, and by none objection had been raised to this Bill on more strongly than Mr. Montagu, that the account of its giving the Lord Chancellor present system involved a maximum of the appointment of the Judges who were expense with a minimum of justice. At to preside in this Court, but he could not present, 431. was the least expense at see upon what foundation it rested, when, which a man could be at before the Com- without dispute, he appointed all the missioners; for there could not be less Judges in Westminster Hall. Besides, he than three meetings. Under the new had already the appointmentofthese seventy system, the creditor would, at an expense Commissioners, vacancies among whom of 301., be able to have as many public occurred every year : and it was clear that meetings as he might require, and as the present system, costing the public many private meetings as he might think 70,0001. a-year, instead of 30,0001., must fit at the cost of ii. Gentlemen talked give a greater annual patronage than about the expense of this Court; but the could be exercised under the new Bill. plain fact was, that the country, instead of It was objected, also, with regard to the paying 70,0001. a-year, would only have period of the appointment of these Judges, to pay 30,0001. His hon. and learned that they might be in the receipt of their friend spoke with an air of determination salaries several months before they comand positiveness that would almost per- menced their duties. Now it must be suade one he was always in the right; but considered that they did not at once go he could not help suspecting, that he knew into a Court and begin their operations, as little of the time that would be occu- but that they had to form a Court; and two pied in this new Court as of the proceed- months was not too much time for the purings of the Commissioners of Bankruptcy. pose. In short this country had long been Suppose there be 5000 public meetings groaning and suffering under the most imand 2,000 private meetings, it would give perfect and inefficient system of law, with rethe Commissioners work for six hours a gard to bankruptcy matters, that it was posday through nine or ten months in the sible to imagine, and had paid dearly for peryear. But there was every reason to jury, delay, and uncertainty. He had not believe, that when the business could be troubled the House with a statement of done at a reasonable expense, and in a the evidence of various witnesses upon satisfactory manner, the increase of busi- these points, for they were notorious and ness would make the work greater. That undeniable. This Bill would substitute such was likely to be the case might be for all these evils an efficient Administrajudged from the fact of the Court of Ex- tion of justice, and therefore he should chequer having twenty times as much support it. He had refrained from enterto do as it used to have. Another objec- ing into various topics introduced by his tion made to the Bill was on account of hon. and learned friend because he did the retiring allowance given under it to not think it respectful to the House to octhe Lord Chancellor, but if it was com- cupy its time with any matter except the pared with what was received by Lord actual Bill. Lyndhurst and Lord Eldon, and if thel Mr. John Smith rose to support the Bill, the object of which was, to carry into effect that if, instead of a composition by the alterations which he had urged upon the creditors (which it was very difficult to House many years ago, but without effect. effect with the consent of all the creditors) It was in some measure by his humble the man was driven into the Gazette his means that the Committee which had been estate produced only a dividend of 2s. in referred to was appointed by the House in the pound. The new Court, which had 1818. The evidence given before that been denounced by the hon. and learned Committee convinced the House and the Gentleman (Sir E. Sugden), whose ability public, that the Bankrupt-laws as they and confident manner were calculated to stood were a source of villainy, fraud, and make an impression on persons not as well perjury, of the grossest and most odious acquainted as he was with this subject in kind. It was clearly made out in evidence all its bearings, was a feature in the Bill that there were men plying, almost openly, of which he very much approved. The a daily trade at the doors of the Court of official assignees, too, of which the same Commissioners, and that they were ready, hon. and learned Gentleman disapproved, for small sums, to swear to any debts that would, he (Mr. Smith) did not doubt, be might be required; that bills of ex- the chief means of saving the estates of change drawn for the purpose were put bankrupts, and making them productive. into the hands of these persons to support He had had so much experience of the the proofs they made upon bankrupts' evils occasioned by assignees, themestates; and that thus the certificates selves in bad circumstances, getting the of fraudulent bankrupts were obtained in bankrupt's estates into their hands, and spite of their real creditors. The opinions absconding or failing, that he was glad to of some of the most eminent men in the see the security of a responsible officer city of Londou confirmed the opinion interposed for the protection of the creditwhich he had formed, and convinced him ors. He hailed the measure as a proof that nothing was more injurious to the of the earnestness and ability of the illusfair tradesman than the facility which the trious nobleman at the head of the law Bankrupt-laws afforded to fraud, while in this country in purifying the judicial the delay and expense which accompanied institutions; 'and he thought a better bethem amounted in many cases to a total ginning could not have been made than denial of justice. He knew many in- with the Bankrupt-laws, which were the stances in which commercial men often worst in Europe, and a disgrace to the were obliged to submit to great losses as nation. He gave his most cordial support a less evil than applying to the Equity to the Bill. Courts. He had known Lord Eldon re- Bill read a second time serve his opinion for sixteen years, to the ruin of suitors, though the point at issue SELECT VESTRIES BILL.] Sir John was such as the new Court would settle in Hobhouse moved that the Bill be read a a few days. The evils now to be reme-third time. died, existed and were complained of thirty Mr. Trevor said, that he intended to years ago. On one occasion a rich man speak on the principle of the Bill. At the refused to pay to the banking-house with then late hour of the night that would be which he was connected more than 4,0001.extremely inconvenient. He suggested on his bond of 4,5001. The house had that the question for the passing of the consulted its legal adviser, Mr. Kay, Bill, which certainly was of a most imthe solicitor of the Bank of England, who portant nature, should be postponed. had told him, that the house could un

Sir John Hobhouse was surprised at any doubtedly recover the money in a Chancery objection being made at this stage of the suit,“ but,” added Mr. Kay,“ mind what Bill, which he, and he believed every one I tell you, my bill will exceed the 500l." else, thought had been already fully disUnder such circumstances the banking-cussed. house to which he belonged had no Mr. Protheroe thought the Bill, instead other alternative than submit to the loss of receiving any impediment, should be Such were the Courts of Equity. It often hastened as much as possible. happened that a man who stopped pay- sent system of vestries was one of great ment would appear, on his books being injustice. In numerous parishes, he was inspected by his creditors, to be able to pay sure, taxes would not be paid if the pre188. in the pound; but it was almost certain, I sent select vestries were continued.

The pre

ton Factories,

Sir Robert Inglis said, he was some

HOUSE OF LORDS, what surprised at the language of the Thursday, October 6, 1831. hon. member for Bristol: he appeared to Minutes.] Bills. Brought up from the House of Commons think the House would be deterred from

and read a first time; the Vestries Bill; the Whiteboy Act its duty by threats. If there was no other Amendment Bill; the Public Hospitals (Ireland) Bill; the reason to delay this important Bill, the re

Customs' Fees Regulations Bill; the Payment of Wages

in Money Bill; and the Payment of Wages in Goods mark of the hon. Member, that the

Repeal Bill. Referred to a Select Committee; the Cotparishes would legislate for themselves, was sufficient to induce the House to do so,

Petitions presented. In favour of Reform. By the Earl of

CAMPERDOWN, from the Incorporation of Weavers, and not to pass such a Bill at that late Cupar; and of the Inhabitants of Auchtermuchty :--By the hour.

Earl of RADNOR, from the Freeholders and Inhabitants of

the County of Berks :-By Earl Gower, from the InMr. Spring Rice said, the Bill had been

habitants of Invergordon and Giggleswick, and from the most fully discussed, besides having been Staffordshire Potteries:-By Lord ABERCROMBIE, from under the attention of a Committee up

Inhabitants of Dundee :- By the Marquis of WESTMEATH,

from the Inhabitants of Kildalkey:--By the Earl of Fife, stairs for several months, who had recom- from Keith, in Banffshire :--- By the Duke of ARGYLE, from mended it to the House: it had been ex- Campbeltown, Argyleshire:-By Earl GREY, from Glendall

Ward, Northumberland; Staines; Seven Oaks, in Kent; and amined at full length before a Committee

from High Street, St. Giles's, signed by all the Inhabitants of the whole House. He could not except five:-By the LORD CHANCELLOR, from Huddersimagine what useful purpose the hon. field, signed by 7,500 Persons; from the Ward of Bishops'. Member could gain by now opposing it,

gate:--Buglanton; Deddington; Dunkeld ; Selby; St.

Giles, Camberwell; the Protestant Freemen of Galway, for there was no doubt it must ultimately St. Clement's Danes, Anstey and Chorley:-By the Marquis

of LANSDOWN, from Rothsay, in the Isle of Bute:--By Lord pass into a law.

Dacre, from Cheshunt and Amersham. Against Reforin. Mr. George Dawson said, he was favour

By the Marquis of SALISBURY, from Hitchin, praying that able to the principle of the Bill, and had the Reform Bill may not pass without due securities being

taken that the Constitution shall remain unimpaired:no intention of opposing it, but for the

By the Earl of Fingal, from the Corporation, Clergy, violent language of the hon. member for and Justices of the Peace, Galway, praying that the GalBristol, who had attempted to overawe the

way Franchise Bill may pass into a law :---By the Mar.

quis of HEADFORT, from the Protestant Freemen of GalHouse by threats. He objected accord

way Corporation :---By the Marquis of CLEVELAND, from ingly to the third reading at that time. the resident Protestant Free Burgesses of Galway:-By the Mr. Protheroe said, he had no intention

Marquis of WESTMEATH, from the Town of Galway :

By the Marquis of LANSDOWN, from the resident Freemen to use the language of intimidation or to

of Galway. appeal to the fears of the House. He knew such an attempt would be wholly Fees IN COMMON LAW Courts.] unsuccessful. His only motive for support- The Earl of Shaftesbury moved the third ing the Bill was, to restore to the people reading of the Fees in Courts of Law the authority that of right belonged to Bill. them, but which had been lessened by The Lord Chancellor said, if


sound select vestries at various places.

objection could be made to this Bill he Sir John Hobhouse said, any discussion should have no objection to have it reconon this Bill at so late a state of its pro- sidered. According to a statement made gress could only delay it from passing for last night by a noble Earl, this Bill would a very short time; if the hon. Member, unjustly affect the interests of some of the therefore, thought proper to again argue Welsh Judges, whose case he should not it he would endeavour to meet him. He object to have considered. would only add, that in urging the pass- Earl Cawdor said, that the Law Coming of this Bill he was not stimulated by missioners were not authorized to grant any thing that was passing out of doors.

compensation for fees which were not enMr. Trevor said, he had no desire to forced by Act of Parliament, or by a impose any unnecessary delay, but he prescription of fifty years. Now it was wished the third reading to be postponed notorious that fees were received and conuntil the next day, and he should propose sidered legal which did not come within an amendment to that effect.

either of these heads. The emoluments The House divided on the Original of some of the Welsh Judges depended Question. Ayes 38; Noes 8-Majority 30. entirely on such fees, and by this Act The Bill read a third time and passed. they would not be entitled to any com

pensation, which was not, he supposed, intended by the Bill.

The Lord Chancellor thought there should be some limit of time fixed, and if

injustice were done, a Special Report coast, and had important duties, pregnant might be made by the Commissioners. He with advantage to the country, to perform. thought the Welsh Judges did not come He did not know whether the abolition of within the meaning of the Bill.

such duties would be one of the necessary Lord Tenterden said, in order to arrive changes expected from this Bill, but it at a proper understanding with respect to was very likely that it might be one of the this Bill, it was necessary to consider the results of it. circumstances which rendered its adop- The Earl of Glengall presented a Petition necessary. The Common-law Com- tion from Tipperary in favour of the Remission having determined that the aboli-form Bill. He wished, in doing so, to tion of certain fees was desirable, and take the opportunity to state his reasons that a compensation in lieu should be for voting against the second reading of made to those entitled to receive them, a the Reform Bill. He was a decided friend Commission was consequently appointed to a Reform in the Representation of the to determine those points, and that com- people of England, but he conceived that mission considered that under the Act 1 a very wide difference existed between Will. 4, c. 58, which had been passed voting against Reform in general, and for the purpose of regulating the receipt voting against this Bill.

He for one was and appropriation of fees and emoluments most desirous to see a moderate measure receiveable by the Officers of the superior of Reform introduced, and he was sure Courts of Common Law, they were bound that such a measure, if it were brought only to entertain the claims of such per- forward, would meet not only with the sons as could shew they were entitled to general approbation of that House, but these fees by authority of Parliament or with the approval of the great majority some other legal authority. This neces of intelligent persons in the three kingsarily led to considerable difficulty, and doms. it was, therefore, thought adviseable to Lord Belhaven presented a Petition bring in the present Act, in order that such from the corporation of Haddington, in fees should be established as legal fees favour of the Reform Bill. The petiwhen there had been an enjoyment for a tioners were persons who were interested given period; and that period, after much in the present state of things, but they consideration had been fixed at fifty years. were willing to sacrifice such interests for Bill read a third time and passed.

the public good.

The Earl of Haddington said, that he REFORM-Petitions.] Lord King pre- had been long aware that there was a desented Petitions in favour of the Reform sire in Scotland for a Reform of the ReBill, from a parish in Halifax, Yorkshire, presentation there, but the Bill now before signed by 1,100 persons, from the Out- the House had nothing to do with that dwellers in the port of Dover, who ex- part of the United Kingdom. He was pressed themselves willing to resign their anxious to state on this occasion, that existing rights, in order to facilitate the which he had intended to state last night, passing of this Bill, and from several other but which he had omitted to mention places. The petitioners also prayed that namely, to express his conviction of the the office of Warden of the Cinque Ports necessity of Reform in Scotland. He might be abolished, as the influence of had never had, at any time, a doubt that that officer was opposed to Reform. if the principle of Reform was to be The Duke of Wellington, referring to a adopted at all

, its application to Scotland passage in the petition from the Dover was essentially necessary. He had on former voters, said, that he did not think that the occasions resisted Reform for Scotland, office of Warden of the Cinque Ports had because he was of opinion that it would anything to do with the rights of the free- be impossible to introduce it without its holders in Dover or elsewhere. An Act being followed by a Reform of the Repreof Parliament was in existence which pre- sentation in England. If Scotland had vented the Warden from having any thing remained an independent kingdom, and to do with the election of a Member of had Aourished as it bad done, the present Parliament, and he could not see what the system of Representation would never office of Warden had to do with this Bill. I have continued there. It was now absoThe Warden of the Cinque Ports had the lutely and essentially necessary that some command of all the fortresses on that kind of Parliamentary Reform should be

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