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while Government could spare no time from their speculations to attend to this philanthropic plan, it was digested, prepared, and ably brought forward by the member for the close borough, the rotten borough, of Aldborough. When the tumult and agitation now excited by those who called themselves the friends of the people had ceased, when the people were allowed to take breath and reflect a little, they would inquire, not who represented the largest town, who had the most constituents, but who brought forward plans most likely to prove beneficial to the country.

Mr. Paget said, the true source of the evil was, the want of capital, without which the working classes could not possibly have adequate employment. Now, the Question of Reform came directly home to this point, for what caused the want of capital but the overwhelming load of taxes laid on by those insatiable monsters, the boroughmongers? To this it was owing that the poor-rates, which in the time of George 3rd were only 700,0007. had increased to 7,000,0007.

loss of the Reform Question, as they would have been by gaining it. It was a great injustice to accuse his hon. friend of an intention to cause a rising amongst the people. It was not usual for Tories like his hon. friend, for the Representatives of these decayed and scanty boroughs, to disseminate in that House, or elsewhere, opinions on the subject of the comforts of the poor, in such a manner as to be chargeable with spreading anything like dissatisfaction; that was not a Tory vice. That, however, was the only defect the hon. and learned member for Stafford was able to find in the plan of his hon. friend. With respect to his objections to his hon. friend speaking of the rights of the poor, he must beg to inform the hon. and learned member for Stafford, that he did not use them in the strict and narrow sense in which they were interpreted in Maule and Selwyn's reports; or, according to the definition that would be applied to those rights in the Court of King's Bench. His hon. friend spoke of the rights of the poor in that civil, political, moral, and religious sense, in which they must always be spoken of in every civilized community. He did not say, that those rights had been invaded by the system of inclosures, but he did say, that if in its progress more attention had been paid to the practical amelioration of the condition of the poor, they would not have been in the state they now were. The hon. member for Colchester had truly observed, that there had been cases where the possession of land ought to have been specifically and directly secured to the poor. He did not propose to enter at large into all the topics introduced by his hon. friend, but he was of opinion, that the two main principles he had contended for, had been completely established by him. It would be a great advantage to cheapen the cottages of the poor. They were fifty or perhaps 100 per cent too lear. This, with a small allotment of land, would be a great benefit. The rights of the poor ought to be better secured in all future inclosures. Let it go forth to the public, and let it be remem-hibited a diminishing ratio. Since our bered, that often as the Duke of Newcas- returns upon this subject had been more tle's name had been heard in that House, perfect, this fact had been clearly estabandied about from one hon. Member to blished; and it appeared from them, that another, and by some members of the Ca- every individual who now paid 9s., a few binet too, vilified, cried down, reverberated years back paid 13s. He would cast no as it were from the depths of Cacus's cave, reflection upon true political economy, but as the owner of the nomination borough upon that spurious political economy which of Aldborough--let it be remembered, that laboured to deteriorate the condition of

Mr. Sadler wished to notice a few of the observations which had fallen from the hon. member for Leicester, without mingling political considerations with a subject it was most desirable to keep clear of. With respect to the hon. Member's statement of the amount of the poor-rates at the beginning of the reign of George 3rd, did he not know, that the returns upon which he founded his assertion were acknowledged to be inaccurate? It was matter of historical notoriety that they were, at the time they were made, thrown aside as utterly useless. There was, however, a document drawn up in the reign of Charles 2nd, by a man of great talents and industry, from which it appeared that the poor-rates then amounted to 800,000l., or half the revenue of the country. He would challenge the hon. Member to deny the fact, that the cost of sustaining the poor had, in reference to every other branch of expenditure since then, constantly ex

the poor, which constantly attacked the feelings so beautifully described by the hon. member for Colchester, which sought to abridge the rights and privileges of animal existence, whilst it protected the rights of the rich. That sort of political economy he should always attack. As to his having obtruded any theories of his own upon the House, he could only say, that he had never done more than refer to matters of fact, which were open to all alike. He was to be set right, as the hon. and learned member for Stafford thought, on a point of law; but he conceived, notwithstanding that hon. and learned Member's illustration of legal technicalities, that he was right, and the hon. Member wrong. He spoke the language of the highest law authorities -not his own. None of the facts he had brought forward had been impugned. It could not be denied, that the ploughshare now made its way where once stood the bower of content, the site of which was now only marked by a few flowers twining up the fence, memorials of humble domestic happiness. It could not be denied that, in many instances, the poor had no habitatious in which to dwell. How could the expense of erecting them be objected to, when the rental of the village, which the clergyman he had referred to mentioned, was 700l. a-ycar? Four or five additional cottages would make all the difference between each family having its own dwelling, and several now living together in that crowded state, which always rendered decency, and sometimes even morality, impossible. The cost of building these cottages, compared with the amount of happiness they would occasion, was so small, that he could not think the Government or the country would refuse to grant the trifling boon now asked. They must remember how large a portion of the revenue of the country came from the poor, before they thought a trifle like this too much to grant them. Something was said by the hon. member for Leicester about the poor being rendered comfortable, only through the means of high profits to the manufacturer and agriculturist. He would ask him whether, during the latter years of the war, agriculture was not prosperous? Yet, in the report on labourers' wages, it was found, that it was at this very time, when the returns on agricultural capital were so large, that the pernicious system which now degraded our labourers took its rise. If they must wait before they

were to do anything for the poor till those prosperous times returned again, they must never look forward to doing anything for them at all. The capital wanted for his plan, they had already. He wanted sinews, muscles, and hearts willing to work. These they had, and, by a proper use of them, the produce of the country might be increased, and the character of the whole empire improved. The importance of this plan was underrated by hon. Members. Let them consider the numberless individuals who would be benefited, the happiness that would be diffused, and the improvement that would be occasioned by it, and he was sure its importance would be increased in their eyes, and the difficulties in the way of its execution vanish. He regretted it should have been thought that he had said anything to irritate the feelings of the country. Such was far from his wish; but the agitation which had been occasioned by the present distress could not be calmed without going at once to the bottom of it. The surface of society might be calmed, but the mass of suffering and of distress beneath would heave, and, if not counteracted, lay prostrate all existing institutions. He regretted to hear, since he had entered the House, that the fires were rekindling. He hoped it was not so; but to prevent it, let them make haste to kindle other flames, namely, the flame of gratitude in the bosom of the poor. Let them be told that their situation was known, and that the House was anxious to afford them relief. Let them be taught again to entertain feelings of respect and affection towards their superiors-feelings which, he must do them the credit to say, he believed they were anxious to renew. In the statement he had made he had much curtailed what he had intended to say; but temporary indisposition, and fear of the House becoming impatient were the cause of it. He had intended to bring forward the plan in the last Parliament, but the pressure of other business had prevented him from doing so. He now begged to thank the Chancellor of the Exchequer for his kindness in allowing him to introduce this measure, and the House for the patience with which it had listened to him.

Leave was then given to bring in the Bill.


up the Report of the Committee for the tion. The first might be materially imimprovement of the House, observed, that proved by the construction of a new roof, the bad state of the atmosphere, and the framed and lined with wood; and by the exposure to unequal draughts of air had adoption of the ordinary measures, the already caused the death of several hon. ventilation might be made infinitely better. Members in the course of this arduous These improvements might be effected Session. He had to state, that three archi- without any essential alteration in the tects had been consulted-Sir Geoffrey form of the apartment, for which he had Wyattville, Mr. Benjamin Wyatt, and the greatest veneration. Interruption, Mr. Smirke. He would first state in too, to the Speaker might be avoided acwhat they agreed, then in what they dif- cording to Mr. Wyatt's plan, by confered. They all agreed, that the accom-structing a passage round the apartment, modation in the House at present was al- from which doors should open upon every together inadequate to the number of gangway; so that an hon. Member, in Members, and that two feet was the least taking his place, need never pass over the space which ought to be allotted to every floor of the House. Nor need there ever be Gentleman who had to sit for a number of that accumulation of Members at the bar, hours. He had admitted, that in the which now gave rise to such noise and intheatres a space of not more than eighteen terruption to the debate. The alterations or twenty inches was allowed. In the would afford increased accommodations to House, as it then stood, there were only the Members, would increase the size of 700 feet of accommodation; therefore, only the House, would enable them to have it accommodation for 350 Members. Now, better ventilated, would improve the hearSir Geoffrey Wyattville's plan was, on ing, and facilitate the means of communieither side to open a recess between the cation from one part to another, and all piers of thirty feet, and to cover it with a this would be performed for the sum of flat roof, which should not in the least in- 6,9007. This statement was exclusive of terfere with the building as it then stood. the roof, which would make the sum amount These recesses would afford accommoda- to 10,000l. In making the statement, he tion to 140 Members. But he considered was bound to tell the House that the the plan liable to objection, inasmuch as Committee appointed to investigate this Mr. Speaker would have great difficulty matter had not agreed with him, and that in seeing hon. Members in those remote the Report he had made as their Chairman recesses; and they would find it scarcely was of course made according to the wishes possible to make themselves heard by all of the majority, but his own opinion rethe House. Mr. Benjamin Wyatt's plan mained the same as before. The gallant was, that the House should be projected Colonel then proposed that at the begininto the Lobby, and that beyond that an- ning of next Session the Committee should other and more extensive Lobby should be be renewed, and should receive at the constructed a plan to which he himself same time instructions as to which of the inclined, and to which all persons who plans they should adopt-that of altering voted on the late division must, he should the House in the way he proposed, or that imagine, feel well disposed. By this ad- of building another, as was suggested by dition to the House there would be ac- the Committee. He moved that the Recommodation afforded for 100 more Mem- port of the Committee be received this bers than at present. According to the day three weeks. usual allowance of eighteen inches space for each person, there would then be in the House accommodation for 590 Members, and for 450, at least, that ample space in which a man of ordinary dimen-blowing in that quarter. He also sugsions might sit, in a comfortable position, gested, that as many hon. Members had for a number of hours. The plan of Mr. their boots shod with iron, and frequently Wyatt he considered might be carried into walked or rather trotted, or rather went effect at a small expense. His estimate in a bog-trot amble across the House, a was 3441.; Mr. Smirke's was 3501.; and carpet should be put down to diminish he thought this plan would give all the ac the noise. commodation required. The next points

Mr. Hunt said, that he thought that something ought to be done directly to remedy the inconvenience which was felt from the west window when the wind was

Colonel Sibthorp said, that one obser

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duced him to say a few words to the House. They were told that this proposed plan would improve the hearing. He should be glad of that, for it was often said, that members, and he for one, could not be heard; it was so said by the corrupt, hired, and perverted Press. stated that without fear of what might be said respecting him by that corrupt Press. He had asked for better accommodation for the reporters, who now made excuses for not hearing. All he asked was, not to be misrepresented. He desired the House to consider this subject attentively, and unless they were satisfied that the proposed alteration would be sure of producing the expected advantages, he should, for one, say, that he should be more willing to lay out 60,000l. for building a new House, than to expend 6,9007. for alterations that might not be sufficient.

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cal's out of doors, to remove the piers. He must oppose him in this Reform, as he had opposed others in one of a political kind, the object of which was also to remove the peers. His hon. and gallant friend had told them, with an odd combination of expressions, that no man could sit comfortably in that House without "two feet;" and had proceeded to calculate their seats by "running measure." This was, indeed, a Reform on fundamental principles, and might not be without its advantage if they saw any prospect of such a union of parties as would form a broad-bottomed Administration. But he thought, under present circumstances, it would be fitter to argue the case à priori, and consider whether they were not very well as they were. It was a remarkable instance of the blindness with which one favourite object or theory will affect the clearest intellects, when his hon. and gallant friend chose this particular moment to produce his proposition for the enlargement of the House. They had last night agreed to a measure that was equivalent to a diminution of the numbers of the House, and on that, the following night, a scheme was offered to them for rendering it capable of containing a larger number of Members. The hon. Gentleman apparently forgot that this House, which had so long been found tolerably convenient for 658 Members, must surely be large enough for a much smaller number. It had been said, that they had not room enough for hon. Members; but the benches were seldom fully occupied, and certainly a greater number of Members could not be expected to attend when the numbers of the House were reduced. On this occasion, which concerned them all, they had but a scanty attendance; it was, therefore, clear, that it was not places that they wanted. He did not blindly reverence the mere antiquity of the edifice; but he could not forget that it was the place in which the Cecils and the Bacons, the Wentworths and Hampdens, the Somers's and the St. Johns, the Walpoles and the Pulteneys, the Pitts, the Foxes, the Murrays, and the Burkes, had "lived, and breathed, and had their being." He did, he confessed, however weak it might appear to the strong-minded Reformers of the day-he did feel the influence of the religio loci; and as long as the human mind was susceptible of local associations, he could not disregard the beneficial effect that might be felt from their continuing to assemble on the scene

Mr. Croker fully agreed with his gallant friend who had introduced this question, that the further consideration of the Report ought to be postponed for three weeks; for, as within that time the prorogation was likely to take place, it would amount to an entire postponement. He was, indeed, a little surprised and disappointed that an hon. Member, with whom he had had the pleasure of voting for the last six months, should now appear as the advocate for reforming this House, and should begin his advocacy by proposing, like the Radi

where so many illustrious actors had per- | duty, and listen patiently to a debate, formed such splendid parts. If patriotism from which, with easier means of egress, could grow warmer on the plain of Mara- they probably would escape. With the thon, and piety amid the ruins of Iona, facilities which his gallant friend's plan the zeal and talents of British senators proposed, they would continually have might also be exalted by the religious and Gentlemen of locomotive habits moving legislative sanctity with which time and about, to the obvious interruption of the circumstances had invested the ancient business of the House and the country. chapel of St. Stephen. The Irish House of Commons and the French Chambers, which were built according to all the rules of architecture and all the theory of acoustics, were the worst constructed buildings for hearing that was possible, while the English House of Commons, patched and pieced as it was, contained nearly all the advantages a Legislative Assembly could desire. They might make a building as large as Westminster Hall without ensuring attention, for that depended on the speaker and his auditors, and not on the place. He therefore did not think it would be necessary to enlarge the House, though there were some parts of its interior to which the attention of the Board of Works ought to be directed. He should, on the whole, oppose the further consideration of this subject, which he thought quite needless to be introduced at this moment, and which he did not believe could at any time be beneficially arranged on the principles proposed by his hon. and gallant friend.

The hon. Member complained of the disorderly assemblage of Members about the bar during a full House: it happened rather unfortunately for this argument, that while the hon. Gentleman was speaking they were repeatedly compelled to call upon hon. Members to take their places, and to cry out " Bar! Bar!" although there was sitting-room for 250 Members vacant at the moment. It was not places for seating an audience that they wanted, but the power of commanding attention. He was sure that those who had attended to the Debates in that House would agree with him, that whenever a Gentleman rose to whom the House was desirous of attending, he had always the power of making himself heard. He doubted whether any architectural alteration that could be made would ensure either the attention of the House when it was not disposed to listen, or the power of any Member of commanding that attention. Another grievance alleged against the present House was, the narrowness and inconvenience of its benches; but he was inclined rather to admire the House for the peculiarity of its benches; for he knew that if they were uneasy to sit upon, they were still less formed to gratify the propensity which their speeches might occasionally produce, as it was almost impossible to sleep upon them. They knew from the example of Eutychus, that a greater orator than even that House had ever produced, had occasionally set some of his auditory asleep and, even in this short Debate, the House might see that no additional convenience was necessary to invite hon. Members to repose [one or two Members were observed to be asleep on the back benches.]

Colonel Trench said, he was particularly unhappy that the right hon. Gentleman had made him the subject of his wit and sarcasm. He was utterly unable to follow the right hon. Gentleman in these respects. He was afraid that he had made a statement which the right hon. Gentleman could not understand.

Mr. Croker said, he should feel very sorry if his hon. friend supposed he had meant any personal offence to him; on the contrary, he had the greatest respect and regard for him, and was perfectly aware of the purity of his hon. friend's taste in architecture. All he had ventured to suggest was, that the building they then possessed, notwithstanding many apparent defects, was, in fact, admirably fitted for the great purposes for which they assembled in it.

Motion agreed to.

Another part of his hon. friend's proposition was, to afford wider gangways, and greater facilities of moving about. But he doubted whether that would turn out to be any material advantage, as, at present, many hon. Members kept their places from an indisposition to disturb their neighbours; and were sometimes induced to attend to a, perhaps, tedious

BANKRUPTCY COURT BILL.] The Attorney General moved, that the Bankruptcy Court Bill be committed.

On the question, that the Speaker leave the Chair,

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