without regard to any, the most remote, | the recommendations of Committees of that ulterior considerations, or to whoever House, and upon the recommendations of might happen to hold the Great Seal for the time being.

individuals who had given their best attention to the subject; and there was no part of this Bill, not even that part which was most condemned, which had not received the sanction of most respectable authorities reiterated from time to time. Considering the way in which Commissioners of Bankrupts were appointed, it would be a most extraordinary circumstance if that jurisdiction were efficient; agreeing, however, with his hon. and learned friend, that among the Commissioners there were to be found as intelligent, efficient, and respectable individuals, as filled any situations in the kingdom. He had for many years been in the constant habit of practising before them, and had, therefore, constant opportunities of seeing them; and he would unhesitatingly state, that there were individuals in that jurisdiction before whom he should be most happy to plead; still that jurisdiction had been made more the subject of patronage than any other in the kingdom. It was well known that to Lord Chancellor after Lord Chancellor it had been the means of obliging political and other friends, and a great number of individuals had been appointed who were utterly incapable of discharging the duties belonging to their office. The hon. and learned Gentleman had spoken of this jurisdiction without knowing anything about it; he had borne testimony to the manner in which the Commissioners did their duty. He believed he never was in a room with them in his life, he was sure that his hon. and learned friend had no experience on the subject, that he possessed no personal means of information. He was quite in error when he stated to the House that much attention was usually given to parties at private meetings. He would read what had been stated by an hon. and learned friend of his, who had been engaged in eleven times as much business before these Commissioners as any other individual in existence. He said, Secondly, among the evils of the jurisdiction is the difficulty of fixing the attention of the This individual was

Mr. Serjeant Wilde did not know whether his hon. and learned friend had ever received any castigation in the Court of Chancery, but, certainly, if not for that, for some other sufficient reasons, he had addressed the House on the present occasion on very many, various, and dissimilar subjects. He (Mr. Serjeant Wilde) had never received any castigation from the present Lord Chancellor; and it was, therefore, to him no matter of surprise that an hon. and learned friend of his, near him, could treat this subject with good humour. One of the evils to which his hon. and learned friend (Sir Edward Sugden) called the attention of the House was, the recent despatch of business in the Court of Chancery. As this House and the country had a tolerably long experience of the evil consequences of delay in that Court, there could be but very few hon. Members who would sympathize with the hon. and learned Gentleman. This was undoubtedly a measure of very great importance, embracing the whole system of the present administration of the law. Though his hon. and learned friend had entered into a great variety of topics calculated to distract his own attention and that of his listeners, he had not advanced anything decidedly opposed to this proposition. He had not attempted to shew that the Court, which it was proposed to establish, would be incompetent to answer the object for which it was to be created. He was not aware from whom the noble and learned Lord who introduced this Bill in another place, procured the necessary information on which to act, or to whose experience he addressed himself, if he did not apply to the very same quarters to which the hon. and learned Gentleman had referred. With regard to the introduction of this Bill, the measure now proposed was not new to any individual who might have thought fit to direct his attention to the subject. For upwards of thirty years, the system of bankrupt jurisdiction had been a matter of universal and constant condem-Commissioners." nation and execration. This Bill was the result of those inquiries which had from time to time been made, upon the authority of that House, or by persons professionally engaged in the administration of justice: the Bill at the same time proceeded upon

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himself a Commissioner: he proceeded. The attention of the Commissioners is with great difficulty fixed on the subject matter in dispute. I frequently have to implore the undivided attention of the Commissioners, but at private meetings

'the newspaper is a much more able ad- always decide? no; he frequently directed 'vocate than I am. In January last, on a further inquiry, and often he directed 'my stating to a Commissioner, who had issues to be tried. What was the conse' appointed two and I believe three private quence? These inquiries were unsatis'meetings at the same time, that it was factory; the case came back again to the 'impossible all parties could gain his undi- Vice-Chancellor, and the parties then 'vided attention; the answer to my obser- appealed to the Lord Chancellor, the whole 'vations was," that the Lord Chancellor system being one of endless litigation, had ordered that only three meetings procrastination, and expense. Although 'should be held at once." A more per- he, perhaps, had had considerable ex'verted or mistaken interpretation of that perience on this subject, still there were order could not be conceived.' When many gentlemen who had had more; but, his hon. and learned friend, therefore, with the permission of the House, he would spoke as he had done upon this subject, state a few instances of what had occurred his observations were applied to a point, within his own personal experience, and the in respect of which he possessed no inform- truth of which he could vouch for. It was ation. It must be apparent that this was admitted-and this fact was material—by the case, if the statements which had been the hon. and learned Gentleman opposite, made by individuals who knew anything that the nature of this jurisdiction ought to of the matter were referred to. It ap- be altered. Now, some short time ago, the peared from a statement of Mr. Montague necessity of such an alteration was utterly an excellent authority on this question, denied, but it was now fully admitted, for no and who had been before referred to-that one could deny that great evils existed. His a worse constituted tribunal could not be hon. and learned friend referred to a specific conceived; but how could it be otherwise? case, and as he took it first he would follow Three Commissioners were appointed to his example. In that case a Commission attend a meeting two hours, or, if it were a issued against Messrs. Howard and Gibbs; private meeting, one hour, The counsel, that commission was superseded: it was the attornies, and the Commissioners at- afterwards tried, and before another Comtended, besides the parties. Punctuality mission; and after a very long examinwas not to be expected; a portion of the ation-sixteen or twenty meetings were two hours or hour, as the case might be, held upon it-the petition was rejected. was wasted, in consequence of the non- A petition was presented to the Viceattendance of the necessary parties. The Chancellor to reverse that decision, and examination was taken by question and praying that it should be received; long answer, and while it was proceeding the affidavits were prepared, and six or seven counsel did not sit silent, and discussions counsel were instructed and feed. The frequently arose, so that it often happened case came on before the then Vice-Chanthat half the time of the second meeting was cellor, Sir John Leach, who, as soon as occupied in re-saying and re-considering the case was opened, said—" It is useless what was said at the first; and so they might my going through this petition. I cannot go on for ten, fifteen, or twenty meetings. hear it, inasmuch as the question turns Could it,then, be supposed that such a Court upen contradicted facts, and there must as this, and such proceedings as these were be an issue." An issue, therefore, was calculated to administer justice, equitably, directed. That petition did not cost less and satisfactorily? It had been stated that than 3001. or 4001. and before counsel the average expense of each meeting was 127.; were heard-immediately, in fact, on the it was not more than 107. At last the de- case being opened, and without the long cision of the Commissioners was unsatis- affidavits being looked into further than factory; and what then took place? A to shew the Court that the facts were conpetition was presented to the Vice-Chancel-tradicted-it was thus abruptly disposed lor, the depositions being taken before him of. That petition was presented in 1816; by affidavit, and, consequently, not in the same way as before the Commissioners. The whole matter was gone over again; at last, at the end of some months, the matter came for hearing before the Vice-Chancellor; he decided, and in many cases the parties instantly appealed, But did he

the issue was tried in about twelve months; and a verdict was found in conformity with the decision of the Commissioners, and against the debt. A petition was presented to the Lord Chancellor, with a complaint that the Vice-Chancellor had not heard counsel, and setting forth the

the expense, therefore, of taking the affidavits after all the fees to counsel--the matter was in no way advanced, and the affidavits were mere waste paper. The attorney's costs for taking instructions are 1s. for every seventy-two words; for drawing, 8d. per folio, or seventy-two words, and for copying-to be sworn.

Then

elasped, was at last argued before Lord Chancellor Eldon, and at the period when he left office, it remained waiting for judgment, it having been presented in 1816. The parties implored my Lord Eldon to give judgment notwithstanding that he had resigned the Seals, and not to put them to the expense of having the whole of the matter re-heard before the new Lord Chancellor. In January, 1831, therefore-last January-an order was pronounced on this petition, reversing the decision of the Commissioners, and pronouncing the debt to be good, and the creditors of the estate had the satisfaction of receiving a dividend on 4,000l. of 2s. in the pound, the costs only amounting to 2,000l. There was another case, in which a person of the

fees and expenses incurred in presenting their first petition. At the end of something like twelve months this petition was heard, and after an argument which lasted three or four days, a new trial was granted on payment of costs by the petitioners: these costs amounted to 5501. The new trial, at the end of another twelve months, was about coming on, when it was dis-briefing, 3s. 4d. a sheet for every sheet covered that the order was not quite right. delivered to counsel, of which there were There was a petition, therefore, to the Lord sometimes six or more. An issue was preChancellor to amend it; this was done; pared by one side; the other side said but when the cause was about coming on that the matter ought to be concluded, again, it was discovered that there was and that there ought to be no issue-and another error in the order, and another the result was, that a petition was prepetition was therefore presented, and at sented to the Lord Chancellor; that pethe time of the presentation of that petition, after about a year and a half had tition something like four years and a-half had elasped since the question had first arisen. My Lord Eldon then said, that he should have had all the facts before him three years before, when the petition was first presented. The parties begged and prayed that he would decide the case himself, without obliging them to incur the expense of preparing another issue and sending it down for trial. Four days were occupied in hearing the argument, in which no less than nine counsel were engaged. The Court then made an order confirming the original decision of the Commissioners and the decision of the Jury, and dismissed the petition with costs. The petitioners complained that they should have costs to the amount of 1,550l. to pay the assignees, besides 5501. they had paid be-name of Perkins proved a debt to the fore, and the petitioners' own costs could not amount of 4,000l. The case was examined have been less than 2,500l. The assignees' by the Commissioners, and went through costs were about 500l. Thus there was a de- the same routine, an issue was directed in lay of five years, and the expense altogether the same manner; the debt was estabwas about 50001. This was the jurisdic-lished, and a dividend of 2s. in the pound, tion-the tribunal- which indeed his hon. or something less, paid upon it, the costs and learned friend said, he could not de- greatly exceeding the whole amount of the fend, but which nevertheless had been debt. He might mention several similar defended by others, and held up as perfect cases but would confine himself to one more. and requiring no alteration! He would A dispute arose, in the instance to which cite another case which also occurred he alluded, whether the sum of 3007. had within his own knowledge. In that case been received by the assignee for the a creditor had proved a debt of the amount benefit of the estate or his own benefit, on of 4,000l. A petition was presented, in which an issue was directed-the Vicethe year 1816, to expunge that debt. The Chancellor, conceiving himself incompepetition was presented to the Vice-Chan-tent to decide, directed the issue, and the cellor, by whom the case was referred to verdict decided in favour of the creditors, the Commissioners, who held twenty-five and that the money was received for the meetings upon it, which occupied about use of the estate. When the case went back three years. The Commissioners ulti-to the Court of Chancery, all the parties mately decided against the debt; and a were desirous of having their costs out of petition was presented to the Vice-Chan- the fund, but the parties received only 3007. cellor, who directed an issue; after all a sum not sufficient to pay their costs, and

the rest they went without. He could ac- | remark, as they discharged their duty in company these cases with many others which a different manner from the others. They had occurred within his own experience. were accused, or laboured under the imHe would venture to say-and he had putation, of acting with a peculiar degree been engaged in as many commissions as of severity, which imputation had no any man in England-that the instances foundation whatever; in fact, he never were very rare where a man was not ruined knew a case of any individual committed by a bad commission being taken out by them, who was afterwards discharged against him, He recollected the case of by a superior authority. It really was the a man whose estate was supposed to be practice, to say to creditors, "You will worth 10,000l. My Lord Eldon directed only throw your money away unless you an issue; great delay took place; the whole can get the Commission directed to a estate was ruined and there was not one particular List." At this day there were shilling left to divide among the creditors. many solicitors who, though they believed Instances like these were not rare-they that the prosecution of a Commission of were in the ordinary course of the ad- bankruptcy would be beneficial to the ministration of justice. It might be asked, creditors, declined to take the necessary how this happened? Was the tribunal steps, despairing of obtaining Commisincompetent to administer the duties which sioners who would fearlessly discharge were imposed upon it? One reason was, their duty. Therefore, looking to the the jurisdiction of my Lord Chancellor in Commissioners in the first place, it apbankruptcy was, to a great extent, assumed, peared that they had not the confidence for there was no such jurisdiction given either of the profession or of the public; him by the law of the land. He had it and a great part of the delay and expense and exercised it now, and of course it which took place, arose from the circumwould be idle to attempt to dispute it. stance of the parties appealing against the He only referred to this matter now, in decision, merely from want of such a conorder to shew why the jurisdiction was so fidence. This was one of the evils proincompetent. The Lord Chancellor had posed to be cured by this Bill, which proa commission directed to him to try bank-ceeded upon the recommendations of indiruptcy cases; but it was hardly possible to imagine a tribunal less qualified to decide such questions satisfactorily. It was impossible to suppose that disputed matters of fact could be tried by affidavit. The affidavit was drawn by the attorney, and the witness spoke the language of the attorney, and not his own. My Lord Eldon with his intimate acquaintance with, and knowledge of, human nature-knew perfectly well that it was impossible to decide satisfactorily, on contested matters of fact, without the intervention of a Jury; the Commissioners therefore formed a most imperfect tribunal. Many of them | were too timid to discharge their duty efficiently. He had frequently heard commissioners say, when they had been urged to do their duty and commit a bankrupt, "No! we cannot do it, our re-ed that this would not be the case; but he sponsibility is too great." When he was a Solicitor, he frequently refused to issue Commissions for creditors, observing that it would be useless to do so unless they were directed to a particular List. He had frequently heard it observed by solicitors, that there were only particular Lists who would do their duty; they of course, became the subject of particular

viduals perfectly competent to form a judgment upon the subject. It was proposed to select many of the new Commissioners out of the existing number; and there was no doubt that out of seventy twenty efficient men might be found; and when it was considered that these twenty individuals would form a separate jurisdiction, giving their whole time to the duties of their office, not acting as counsel, and not having their attention distracted by going into different inquiries partially at one and the same meetings, it must be at once conceded that they would make most efficient Judges or Commissioners. He had heard it stated in another place most distinctly, that many of the existing Commissioners were intended to form the new jurisdiction. His hon. and learned friend assum

was mistaken. Very many, if not all of the new Commissioners would be selected from the existing body, and no doubt could be entertained, that when the nature of the jurisdiction was so much improved, it would be found to be most efficient. His hon. and learned friend said, that they had no right to expect the assistance of three efficient Commissioners at one and the

the Lord Chancellor. In 1826, 423 before the Vice-Chancellor, and 223 before the Lord Chancellor. In 1827, 292 bethe Vice Chancellor, and 222 before the Lord Chancellor. In 1828, 353 before the Vice-Chancellor, and 148 before the Lord Chancellor. In 1829, 309 before the Vice-Chancellor, and 147 before the Lord Chancellor. There was scarcely a contested matter which was not afterwards made the subject of appeal; those appeals being productive of the greatest delay, expense, and inconvenience, and frequently ending in the total ruin of the parties. This naturally arose from the very great evils of the existing system. Nobody who heard his hon. and learned friend's statement would believe that suitors at present paid fees to the extent of 40,000l. a-year, a very great part of which would be abo

same time; and he said "If a young man were appointed, I should ask, are there other young men with him; if so, then I should say that the commission is inefficient, but if he were to act in conjunction with experienced persons, then the case would be different.' But was it fit that they should take the chance of having efficient persons in this way? This was not, however, the only objection-there were others which required, to be equally considered. He had attended cases for seven years virtually, as it was called, before a Commissioner whom he (Mr. Serjeant Wilde) never saw-because he was up stairs in bed during the whole of the time a second Commissioner was below, and his door was left open, in order that the oath might be considered as having been administered before him. Now this was a most respectable gentle-lished by this Bill. Nobody would credit man in every sense of the word, but this jurisdiction was certainly inefficient. His hon. and learned friend said, let the appeal be to the Vice-Chancellor: the cases to which he had referred did go before the Vice-Chancellor. They were not now proposing to establish a new Court, the Vice-Chancellor's being untried; they were not now dealing with imaginary evils: Government was called upon to act in a case, the evils of which were well known to commercial and professional men, and called upon by the existence of such glaring defects in the administration of justice, that they could not refuse to legislate. Therefore, it was a sufficient answer to his hon. and learned friend, that the Vice-Chancellor had been tried, and his jurisdiction in this respect, as at present constituted, had been found inefficient. When he heard it said that there were very few appeals, he referred to a return which was made to that House relative to the number of petitions which were heard before the Lord Chancellor. His hon. and learned friend said, that the average was about one in forty; but in referring to this statement, it must not be forgotten that many of the petitions which were laid before the Vice-Chancellor, were mere matters of course. The whole number of petitions heard before the ViceChancellor, in the year 1824, was 150; how it happened he could not tell-but, according to the return, the appeals before the Lord Chancellor in that year amounted to 163. In 1825, 304 were heard before the Vice Chancellor, and 202 before

that his observations could be founded on facts so simple as this: the expense of the new Court would be about 29,0002. a-year, whereas the expense of the present, for the very same matters, was 40,0007. a year and more; besides which a saving infinitely beyond this would accrue to the public in respect of an expense, which had been calculated by Mr. Montague at 240,000l. a-year. The question then resolved itself into this: was the proposed Court calculated to remedy the evils which at present existed? It was; because these Commissioners would bestow their whole and undivided attention upon the matters brought before them,-they would not have their attention distracted by the investigation of several cases at the same time, and they would have the means of coming to a satisfactory decision. The consequence of this improvement would be, that there would not be one-half, or anything like one-half, of the petitions brought forward which were now presented; that was to say, of petitions respecting the same subject-matter. The expense of each meeting at present, as he before observed, was 101. Under this Bill it would be 17., for which sum suitors would have a competent and efficient tribunal, besides the saving which would be made in messages, fees, &c. Thus a great number of appeals would be abolished, and an effectual tribunal created. But would the number of commissions be abolished? There was no question that there would be a much greater number than at present, because the tribunal would be more effec