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cluding a Chief Baron, were maintained smuggling-a cause, for contributing to by the right hon. and learned Baronet, which I thought he would bave taken and decided by this House, though by a credit to himself, and have demanded small majority, to be the number which some praise for preceding Governments, in were necessary to discharge the high, la- which I should have readily and cordially borious, and responsible duties of this concurred. As to investigation, my prinCourt. With these facts before us, and cipal objection to it is, that it is quite usewith the confessed truth, that in the less; it would stay the progress of a benelast year only two defended causes were ficial measure, and could lead to no result brought into Court; when it is notorious to justify the delay, or which would prove that the Court has little or nothing to do, the case of the hon. Gentlemen opposite. can the House hesitate to read this Bill Is it not notorious that the Court, as a a second time?-a Bill which adequately court of justice, is a nest of sinecurists? and cheaply provides for the discharge Can any Gentleman deny, that in Scotof the scanty duties which remain to be land, when a political partisan, of a cerperformed. “But," says the hon. member tain standing and good interest, was to be for Selkirk (Mr. Pringle), “ although the provided for, but whose attainments renCourt of Exchequer have but little to do at dered it impossible that he should be present, cannot an arrangement be made, placed on the bench of the Court of by which it can have some tolerable share Session, he was made a Baron of Ex. of duty ? cannot the Tiend causes be chequer, as soon as a vacancy occurred ? transferred from the Court of Session ?" Whatever may be thought in this House, If, Sir, there were no other objections, I make this assertion without any fear of into which I shall not detain the House its meeting with contradiction. One reaby entering, this proposal would be ma- son for inquiring by a Conimittee, which was nifestly in adequate to give employment stated by the hon. Member (Mr. Pringle) to the Court. The time occupied in de appears to me rather remarkable, viz. ciding all the Tiend cases which arise, that the Bill passed the House of Peers would be about three hours once a fort nearly sub silentio-that is, because the night. As to the project of taking away case is so clear, the Court is so indefensible, the jurisdiction vested in the Court of that none of those noble Lords--and many Session, with respect to minors--some- they are — who combine knowledge of thing similar to that invested in the Scotch legal proceeding, with sufficient Keeper of the Great Seal-that would, 1 veneration for antiquity, to say the least, believe, be objectionable in many respects. attempted to arrest its progress-we, of I never, I confess, heard any complaint the House of Commons, ought to make made of the manner in which that high the certainty of the evils felt by the other and delicate jurisdiction is exercised House, the ground of our doubt. Such by the Court of Session; and some an argument is not a little whimsical. much better reason must be given to that the measure has been introduced by justify its transfer, than merely to give the great man at the head of the law, and some shadow of pretence for maintaining who, it is well known, is intimately acthe Court of Exchequer. But, says the quainted with Scotch legal questions, is, hon. and learned Baronet, the cause of to my mind, no small recommendation. the apparently little business in the Court That it has received the sanction of my of Exchequer is the system of compound-right hon. and learned friend, the Lord ing offences--and of course, were this Advocate, is an additional recommendevil corrected, a considerable accession ation to those who look for authority to of business would be the result. As to support their decision of this question. the reasons, the solid reasons which Indeed, no man, from the splendor of his exist for resorting to those compositions, talents, from the length of his experience, they have been so ably and convincingly and from the extent of his legal practice, stated by the hon. and learned Attorney can know more intimately the wants and General, that it is needless for me to re-wishes of the people of Scotland, than peat them. I was much astonished, how- the right hon. and learned Lord; and, ever, that the hon. and learned Baronet however respectable may be the character did not state one cause, and the chief one, of the right hon. and learned Baronet, I for the diminution of business in the Ex- must be excused from considering him chequer, namely, the great decrease of | so good an authority, or so safe a guide, on a question of this kind, as my right deprive Mr. Abercromby of his office hon. and learned friend (the Lord Ad- without some compensation. vocate). I feel, indeed, the great dis- Mr. Goulburn having been joined in the advantage under which we discuss this inquiry into the Courts of Scotland in question in his absence. But, notwith- 1830, and having then found that there standing this, I am clearly of opinion, that was no reason for the abolition of the the Bill should be read a second time. Court of Exchequer in Scotland, he should

Mr. George Dawson disclaimed all say there was no ground for reversing knowledge of the nature of the function of that decision. He thought further inquiry the Scotch Exchequer Court; he thought was at least necessary before they legisthe proposition of the right hon. member lated. The bill for regulating the Court for Portarlington, for an inquiry into this passed in July, 1830, and he really thought subject, so reasonable, that he should vote the right hon. Gentleman should not effect against that course which the House was a change without inquiry, and thereby called upon so precipitately to adopt. On convincing the country that Parliament that part of the subject which he did un-acted, not upon the principle of jobbing, derstand, and which related to granting but the public interest. the retiring pensions, he considered that it The Solicitor General said, it was a would be a gross and Aagrant job to saddle mistake to say this measure would reflect the country with a retiring allowance of any disgrace upon Scotland. Not one of 2,0001.a year to Mr. Abercromby, the Chief the Gentlemen who opposed the Bill had Baron, who had been but eighteen months said there was any business in the Court. in office, and was in the prime of life. He Before 1794, the Court consisted of five considered this proceeding totally incon- Judges, which by an Act, the 1st of the sistent with the economical professions of King, they cut down to two Judges. It the Ministry. The Government which was clear upon the facts, that the Act to could thus sacrifice the public money, was which he alluded passed without inquiry, unworthy of the confidence of the coun- and, if so, on what ground were hon. Gentry. It was astonishing that the first Lord tlemen on his side of the House to be of the Admiralty, after making a speech charged with smuggling a bill through the upon economy and retrenchment, should House without inquiry? Consistently sanction this pension to the Lord Chief with their own conduct, the Gentlemen who Baron of Scotland. If the Government opposed the Government on such grounds had been sincere in their desire not to could not be sincere. create new offices, they, instead of fixing Sir Charles Wetherell concurred in what upon the country 2,0001. a-year, would had fallen from the noble Lord, who said have called upon Mr. Abercromby to when an office was to be abolished the execute the office of Judge in Bankruptcy. Officer was entitled to compensation ; but If the Government thought proper to per- still he could not admire this Bill. It had severe in giving Mr. Abercromby 2,0001. been said this Scotch Exchequer Bill and a-year, he should move an Address to the the Bankruptcy Courts Bill were to run in Crown, requesting, if the Bankruptcy Bill couples. It did not appear at first sight should pass, that Mr. Abercromby might how those Bills could run together, one fill the office of Chief Commissioner in the being a measure of destruction, and the Bankruptcy Court. If the noble Lord other of construction, but, taken jointly, said the intention was to appoint Mr. both produced a job. In the abolition of Abercromby he should be satisfied. former Courts, and the construction of

Lord Althorp said, their want of eco- new Courts, they had always proceeded on nomy was, that they converted a place for parliamentary inquiry. It was not enough life of 4,0001. a year to a pension of 2,0001. for any Member to say there was ground Then it was said, why was not Mr. Aber for the abolition of a Court. No papers cromby appointed to the vacant office of had been laid on the Table. There had Commissioner of Bankruptcy? The fact been no parliamentary inquiry. Upon the was, it was desirable to place a proper mere dictum of a noble and learned Lord person in that Court. If Mr. Abercromby this Court was to be abolished. According was a fit person he might be appointed, to the Solicitor General's argument, the but he did not think the practice of Mr. reduction of the Judges of the Court of Abercromby had made him fit for a Jury Exchequer was the extinction of that Court. It would have been unjust to Court.' To whom was the business of the

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Court to be transferred ? It was said the On the question being put,
Court of Session could do it; but he might Sir George Warrender said, that the
ask, whether it would not have been ad-Court of Exchequer of Scotland was one
visable to do with the Exchequer in Scot- in which the rights of property were
land as they did with the Exchequer in involved, and the abolition would be a
England, namely, to give the Judges more violence to the feelings of many persons in
to do? The Bill was false in its title. It Scotland.
was in fact a Bill to give the right hon. Sir Charles Forbes thought this Bill
James Abercromby 2,0001. a-year. The might give them a tolerable idea of the
preamble of the Bill was to provide for the nature of the Scotch Reform Bill; it would
despatch of business, and it would appear go to destroy all the ancient institutions
froin these words that the business was of the country “ at one fell swoop." He
oppressive ; yet they were told the Court was afraid the end of all these alterations
was to be abolished in consequence of the would be, that the name of Scotland itself
want of something to do. The Court of would be abolished, and it would ultimately
Exchequer in Scotland was to be de- come to be a department of the United
molished because it pleased the Govern-Kingdom.
ment to put Mr. Abercromby in the office Sir William Rae withdrew his Amend.
of a Commissioner to execute the purposes ment, and the House divided on the motion
of the Parliamentary Reform Bill, which that the Bill be now read a second time.
be believed would never pass into a law. Ayes 95; Noes 31;— Majority 64.
It was at that moment in extremis in Bill read a second time.
another place.

The two Bills were coequal and similar; they were co-com

HOUSE OF LORDS, panions; and his hope was, that both might meet the same fate. He should

Monday, October 10, 1831.

Committed ; Cotton Factories. Read á join in supporting the motion, he under- MINUTES.) Bills.

third time; Management of the Customs. stood his hon. friend intended to move, Petitions presented. By the Earl of SHAFT ESBURY, the that the further proceedings on this Bili Duke of RICHMOND, and other NOBLE LORDs, from

places in Ireland, in favour of the Galway Franchise Bill. should be adjourned to this day six months.

In favour of Reform. By the Marquis of WESTMINMr. Serjeant Wilde said, the Bill did STER, from the Inhabitants of Batley, in the County of

York :-By the Duke of Sussex, from the Town of not propose to do away with the Court of

Masham, in the County of York :-By the Marquis of Exchequer, but to transfer its functions to

CLEVELAND, from Stockton-on-Tees, Durham :-By the the Judges of another Court, who would Duke of NORFOLK, from the Inhabitants of New Shore

It perform its duties without expense.

ham:--By the Duke of RICHMOND, numerously and

respectably signed, from the Inhabitants of Horsham, had been established at the Union only, Sussex :--By Lord SUFFIELD, from Haslingdon, Lancaand could, therefore, lay no claim to remote shire :-By Lord TEMPLEMORE, from the Inhabitants of

Fiskard :-By Lord King, from the Mayor and Inhabit. antiquity. If it was intended to establish

ants of Beverley, and Inhabitants of Sileby. By a NOBLE a new Court there might be some ground LORD, from Thurnham and Debtling in Kent. By a noble for inquiry before the House, but cer

LORD, from Inhabitants of Killegny and Chapel, to dis

band the Yeomanry in Ireland. By the Marquis of tainly that necessity did not exist when an

CLEVELAND, froin the Inhabitants of Dublin, complaining old and useless one was to be dispensed of the Grievance of Minister's Moncy. Against the Reform with. The Bill, however, did not abolish

Bill. By Lord Rolle, from Kingsbridge, Devon. By

the Earl of Fife, from the Inhabitants of Marylebone the Court, it merely provided that the

against Cruelty to Animals; and from the Landholders of vacancies of the Judges as they occurred Banff, against the use of Molasses in Breweries and should not be filled up, and the business should be transferred to the Court of Ses- STANDING ORDERS — Protests.) sion. The Judges of the Exchequer Court The Earl of Radnor said, tlrat being could not be forced to retire, but they anxious, as other noble Lords were, to enter might be induced to do so by a pension his name in the protest against the amendwhich was less than their salaries, and all ment of the noble Baron (Wharncliffe), the difference between the two would be which had been carried on Saturday morna real saving to the public.

ing last, he rose to move, and he supposed Sir William Rae opposed the Bill, and that no objection would be taken to his gave notice, if it should be read a second motion, that they should be allowed to do time, it was his intention to move it be so. Their Lordships were aware that it referred to a Select Committee. The hon. I was competent for any noble Peer to enter and learned Gentleman moved the Debate his protest to any vote of the House before be adjourned to Monday,

two o'clock the next sitting day after such

Distilleries,

vote had been come to, and to sign his in the Spring of 1830.

As the case was name before the rising of the House on pressing, and as there might be but very that day. Now the House rose so early short time for passing this Bill, he begged on Saturday, that many noble Lords who to move that it be read a first time now; came down for the purpose of signing the and he gave notice that to-morrow he protest which had been entered on the would move the suspension of the Standing Journals were prevented from doing so. Orders, in order that the Bill might be As it would be only fair to give them an passed through all its stages as a matter opportunity, he begged to move, that all of course. noble Lords who wished to sign the protest Lord Lyndhurst quite concurred with in question should be at liberty to do so his noble and learned friend as to the until the rising of the House that day. necessity of passing such a Bill. He felt

The Earl of Rosslyn said, he had no bound to state, that the judgment in quesobjection to the Motion, but he begged it tion was pronounced during his (Lord to be understood it was not acceded to as Lyndhurst's) absence from the House, by a matter of course, or upon which a pre- a noble and learned Lord near him (Lord cedent was to be founded.

Wynford). Motion agreed to.

Lord Wynford said, that the noble and

learned Lord on the Woolsack had given Scotch Appeals.] The Lord Chan- him no intimation of such an attack as this cellor begged to submit a Bill to their upon a judgment pronounced by him. Lordships, for the purpose of reversing a The Lord Chancellor was greatly asdecree of their Lordships with reference to tonished to hear such a statement made an appeal case from the Courts below in by the noble and learned Lord. The noble Scotland, as the said decree was utterly and learned Lord's memory quite deceived and completely inconsistent and at vari- him. The noble and learned Lord had ance with the Scottish law on the subject. only to look amongst his papers, and he The case to which he was alluding had was sure he would find a draught of this been decided by some of their Lordships very Bill, which he (the Lord Chancellor) who were unacquainted with the law of gave to him some months ago. He also Scotland, and the consequence was, that mentioned to the noble and learned Lord the decision was quite contrary to that law the correspondence which he had with the and completely contrary to Scotch practice, Judges of the Courts below in Scotland on and that no man that knew any thing of the subject, and the absolute necessity Scotch law would have ever pronounced there was for such a measure as this. The such a decision. The thing had happened fact was, that in consequence of his having in the press of business, and arose from given the draft of the Bill to the noble and that inopia consilii with regard to Scotch learned Lord, he was obliged to send, a law which they had often to lament. The few days ago, when he wanted a draft decision, however, being utterly at vari- of it, to the professional gentlemen enance with the Scotch law, it was necessary gaged in the case. He brought in the to rescind it, and for that purpose, on the Bill thus suddenly, as it was most desirasuggestion of the Judges of the Courts ble that in the present state of the Session below in Scotland, with whom he had had no time should be lost in passing it through a correspondence on the subject, and with the House. the consent of the parties on both sides, Lord Wynford said, that if the noble he now brought in a Bill, with a view to and learned Lord had sent hiin a draft reverse that decision, and to place the of this Bill, he could assure him that this case in the same circumstances that it was was the first time that he had ever heard in previous to that decision being pro- of this Bill. He had heard something nounced. His noble and learned friend before of a draft of a bill, but he had who preceded him in the situation which not heard of what description it was. he (the Lord Chancellor) filled, quite con- The Lord Chancellor said, that the curred with him as to the necessity of noble and learned Lord certainly laboured such a measure. He felt it due to him- under a mistake on this point. He (the self to state, that the decision in question Lord Chancellor) distinctly remembered was pronounced some months before he having mentioned the subject to him at (the Lord Chancellor) had the honour of a the Table. He remembered having told seat in that House, for it was pronounced the noble Lord on that occasion, that he

Returns ordered.

was informed by the Judges in Scotland, | assist and relieve Ireland by the loan of that the judgment of the House in the money for the erection of public works, case of M'Gabbin and Stewart could not and he was assured, that if Grand Juries be executed, as there was no such thing were not to be empowered to borrow money known under the Scotch law as a Special for that purpose, the Bill would be a dead Jury of merchants, to which the case was letter, and of no practical use whatever. ordered to be referred. He remembered | Great checks were at the same time prohis conversation with the noble and learned vided in the Bill, to prevent the abuse of Lord as if it were but of yesterday; he such powers. could attest it upon oath before any Jury, Bill read a third time and passed. and he was as certain of that fact as he was that the noble and learned Lord had

HOUSE OF COMMONS, the draft of the Bill which he (the Lord Chancellor) sent to him, and would find Monday, October 10, 1831, it in his private depositary if he looked MINUTES.) New Members sworn. Sir JOHN BYna, for for it.

Poole, and HENRY GLYNN, Esq., for Flint, Borough.

On the Motion of Mr. JEPHSON, the Bill read a first time.

number of Irish Newspaper Stamps issued during the year

1830:-By Sir Joux Hay, for a Return of the sums due Public Works - Ireland.] l'is

to the Excise for additional duties on Spirits under 1st

William Ath:- By Mr. SPRING RICE, for a Copy of the count Melbourne moved the third reading Treasury Minute, relating to the improvement of the of the Public Works (Ireland) Bill.

Crown Lands (Ireland); and for a Copy of the Report of

the Commissioners of Accounts, relating to the Exchequer. Lord Carbery regretted the Bill should

Petitions presented. By an Hox. MEMBER, from the Gentry, have been brought forward at so late a Clergy, and others Inhabitants of Bassetlaw (Nottingham), period in the Session, when it could hardly against allowing Beer to be drank on the premises of Beerreceive the attention to which it was well

houses. By an Hon. Member, from Landowners and Oc.

cupiers in the County of Suffolk, complaining of the entitled: he was friendly to its object, Tithe Laws. By an Hon. MEMBER, from Agricultural although he objected to that clause which Labourers in East Stoneham and five other places for the

Repeal of the Malt Duty. By Sir FRANCIS BORDETT, gave additional power to Grand Juries to

from the Inhabitants of St. Clement's Danes, in favour make assessments. The Marquis of Westmeath strongly

A Call of the House took place on the Motion of Lord

EBRINGTON. objected to that clause in the Bill which gave additional powers to Grand Juries in

STATE OF

THE NATION.) After the Ireland with regard to levying money. presentation of one or two petitions, the After the delinquencies which had been Speaker wished to know whether it was proved on the part of such bodies, it was the pleasure of the House, that he should to be hoped that some check would be proceed with reading the petition list? placed on their proceedings, instead of (“No, no ;" calls for « Lord Ebrington.") having additional powers thus given to Lord Althorp thought it would be dethem. He would oppose that part of the sirable that the Orders of the Day should Bill, were it not that his doing so might give way to the motion of his noble friend, prevent the Bill, which would be other so as to admit of its receiving that fulness wise productive of advantage to Ireland, of discussion which its importance merited. from passing this session,

Mr. Goulburn hoped, that in the event The Earl of Wicklow thought that this of the Debate's extending to a late hour, Bill would be a most useful one to the the more important motions and orders of country, and he entirely approved of that the day would not be brought forward. part of it to which the noble Marquis had In an exhausted state of the House, it was objected.

plain that they could not receive the meet Viscount Melbourne, referring to a com- amount of deliberation, plaint which the noble Lord (Carbery) Lord Althorp agreed with the right hon. made, of this Bill having been brought on Gentleman, and therefore would make the at this late period of the Session, observed, length of the debate on his noble friend's that that circumstance arose from the vast Motion the criterion of his moving or postquantity of business which was to be done, poning the other Motions and Orders of and the ditficulty there was found in the Day till to-morrow. transacting it; and that such a complaint Lord Ebrington, in answer to the almost did not refer more to the business of Ire- unanimous call of the House, proceeded as land than to that of any other portion of follows:--Mr. Speaker; If, often as I the empire. The object of this Bill was, to have had to address this House, I never

of Reform.

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