for Dumfries said, that the competition | having anything to do with an article of the West-India sugar with that pro- which came into competition with the duced in the foreign slave colonies, had principal article of West-Indian produce. brought down the price in the English During the last year, 63,000 cases of sugar market; and that this was one of the chief were shipped at Bahia for Hamburgh, causes of the great distress felt in the and of these 17,000 were in British ships, colonies. The hon. Member forgot that if 27,000 in American, and 19,000 in Danish, a hogshead or a case of foreign sugar had Swedish, Hanse Town, and other foreign never been refined in this country, the ships. By giving encouragement to the competition would still have existed. The refining of foreign sugar in this country, price of sugar in this country not only de- our own shipping would be benefited, and pended on the competition in the home at the same time no injury to the Westmarket, but upon the price of sugar in the India interest would be done. As the law foreign market. Our colonies produced stood at present, no sugar could be refined more sugar than this country could con- in this country which had not been importsume, and, therefore, the surplus must be ed in British ships, so that, if the renewal sent to the foreign market; and, upon the of this Act was refused, an injury to the selling price of that surplus would depend shipping interest would be done. But it the price at home, for the competition to had been urged, that by encouraging the sell, even at a fraction more than the price sugar trade with the Brazils and Cuba, a in the continental markets, would always premium was held out to those colonies to keep prices level. Thus the prices of continue the atrocious traffic in slaves, now sugar produced at the Havannah and the unhappily so extensively carried on. To Brazils, and sent to Hamburgh and Trieste render, however, this argument of any or St. Petersburgh, would come into com- avail, it ought to be further extended, petition with the English colonial sugar, and we ought to refuse to take cotton, and the selling price of the former, as it was indigo, dye-stuffs, and everything else that produced at less cost, would generally de- was the produce of the Brazils. But if termine the price of the latter. The West- such a proposition were acceded to, what Indians imputed all their distress to the would become of our cotton manufacturers? merely obtaining sugar, the produce of As long as we sent goods to the Brazils, foreign colonies, to be refined here, and and that country was an extensive market therefore, called upon the House, without for our commodities, we must bring goods regard to other interests, to put a stop to back. It was said, that our trade had It had always been the custom with enabled us to carry on the late war, and the West-Indians to make a great outcry would the House, to gratify monopolists, in case of any measure which they imagined consent to ruin our future resources? The might affect them in the slightest degree, object ought to be,to make England the dépôt and at the same time they always attached for all the sugar of the world, that England a greater importance to their interests and might refine for all the continent. He adtheir trade than to that of all the rest of mitted something was due to the Westthe empire. The manufacturing, the Indians, but before the House could come mercantile, and the shipping interests, and to any just decision, large experiments even the rest of the colonies, were to be should be tried, with a view to ascertain disregarded when they were in question. what quantity of raw sugar would be He would venture to say, that the trade to necessary to give a certain quantity of rethe Brazils had as much capital embarked fined sugar; and these large experiments in it as the trade to Jamaica. From the should be continued for six or twelve returns which had been recently printed,it months, or else they could not get at appeared, that the exports to the Brazils the truth. for the last five years had amounted to no less than 21,500,000l., while the imports were 7,000,000l., thus leaving a clear balance of upwards of 14,000,000l. They had compelled the foreign sugar producer to have foreign ships to convey it to the foreign market, in consequence of the impediments that had been thrown in the way of the English merchant or shipowner

it.

No doubt the West-India interest should be considered, but so should the shipping and manufacturing interests of this country, which were very much concerned in this question. It was very well known that we seldom or never had more than three weeks' or a month's consumption of sugar on hand, and the result was, that a few rich merchants could keep it out of the market until it reached

in this Bill, which would aggravate the distress under which the West-India planters were now suffering.

Mr. Warburton could by no means concur with the hon. Gentleman, and as to the delay which was called for, he considered it would be utterly nugatory. It would be unjust to the parties if the renewal of the Act was postponed. Until the Government had correct information, and until it was clearly proved that frauds were practised, this Bill ought to be reenacted.

an extravagant price. He could see no real or solid objection against the Bill. It caused the employment of large capital -it employed a portion of our shipping, employed machinery, and a considerable amount of manual labour; beside which, there was no country in Europe which had so many facilities for refining as England. We owed many of them to the great skill of Mr. Howard, the eminent chemist, the brother to the Duke of Norfolk, who had employed his leisure and fortune in improving the arts, and, he was happy to add, had found in the result an increase both of reputation and of wealth. He had formerly been a refiner himself, though he had no longer any interest in the business, and was, therefore,so practically acquainted with the subject as to enable him to venture an opinion upon it. Again he contended, that the foreign sugar being used in refining prevented the adulteration of West- Mr. Poulett Thomson did not feel himIndia sugar, and at the same time had a self called on to go over his former calcutendency to keep its price within a mo-lations, which proved that the West-India derate compass. In fact, too, it was well-interest could not suffer by the Bill before known that one species of West-India the House. In the observations which sugar would not refine unless mixed with Brazilian sugar, and then it refined extremely well. To withhold that supply would, therefore, injure the West-Indians themselves. If this Bill were delayed for a fortnight, it might as well be delayed for six months, to which he could not consent.

Mr. Burge said, he was well aware that there was a great difference of opinion upon this subject, and he was glad that a Committee had been appointed to inquire, because he was satisfied the erroneous views of the hon. Member (Mr. J. Wood) would be clearly established before that Committee. It was not denied, that the West-Indians were now suffering great distress, which must more or less affect the trade and manufactures as well as the shipping interest of this country. But besides a regard for our own colonies and their aggravated sufferings, we should not forget, that by encouraging the growth of foreign sugar we should be positively encouraging the slave-trade. All other governments encouraged their colonies: but our Government followed a different policy. He was satisfied, that foreign sugar yielded more refined sugar than the produce of our old colonies, and this Bill must, therefore, injure,if it did not ruin them. He entreated the Government and this House, therefore, not to persevere

Mr. Cresset Pelham would not, for the sake of one party, support an interest opposed to the interest of another class. Sugar was better cultivated in the WestIndies than any part of the world, yet it was said they ought to encourage East India sugar. He thought the West-India colonies ought to be protected.

had been made by the Gentlemen who opposed the measure, they had confined themselves to the re-assertion of facts which had repeatedly been urged on the same side. He would confine himself to merely expressing his opinion, that the WestIndia interests could not be in the slightest degree affected by the measure before the House, and that delay could tend to no possible beneficial result to the West-India proprietors or sugar-refiners. The hon. Gentleman had contended that a greater quantity of refined sugar would be produced from East-India sugar than from West-India sugar. That he denied. In fact, the arguments and propositions he had heard for inquiry could have no other object than the defeat of the Bill. By passing the Bill to continue six months, to which, certainly, he would consent, the experiment might, in the mean time, go on, and before the Bill was again renewed, they would be able to ascertain how far it would answer the object. He made that offer, and would commence the inquiry immediately.

Mr. Hume thought the hon. Gentleman ought to withdraw his Motion. If the Motion was persisted in he should vote against it.

Mr. Keith Douglas considered that the hon. Member (Mr. Hume) had no right to dictate to him any such course. He had

brought forward what he considered to be a just and fair motion, and he would take the sense of the House upon it.

the right hon. member for Portarlington they must have derived benefit from his advice, which he would have given frankly and unreservedly, and some of the statements which he made last night would surely have induced them to con

Alderman Thompson could not, after the offer made by his Majesty's Government, support the motion for a Committee. Mr. Hunt thought, that the hon. Alder-sider the subject more thoroughly than man was disposed to legislate first and inquire afterwards. He would inquire first, and, therefore, he would support the amendment.

they appeared to have done. The only person whose opinion had been quoted by the other side, was the learned Judge who presided in that Court: but his ex

The House divided on the Original Mo-perience had been very short. Last year, tion:-Ayes 130; Noes 96;-Majority 34. The Bill read a second time.

business of that Court had been of such long standing, first when he filled the office of King's Remembrancer, and afterwards as one of the Judges? or did they consult Baron Hume, whose varied knowedge of our laws, intimate acquaintance with all our institutions, and acknowledged talent and wisdom, would give such peculiar weight to his opinion, that any measure which had his sanction would be likely, on that account alone, to be favourably received? It was to be remarked, that while they refused to take the mere state

when he was consulted on the same subject by his (Mr. Pringle's) right hon. friend it appeared that he gave his sanction and EXCHEQUER COURT (SCOTLAND) concurrence to the arrangement then BILL.] Mr. Pringle rose to move the adopted, of which the continuation of this Order of the Day for resuming the debate Court formed a part. But he had changed on the second reading of the Bill to abolish his opinion since, upon ten months addithe Court of Exchequer in Scotland. The tional experience. Whom else had the question had not been done justice to, Ministers consulted? Any of the other having been brought on at an advanced Judges of that Court, all of whom had had period of the session, when it could not be much longer experience than the Lord thoroughly inquired into. The Bill passed Chief Baron? Or the lamented Judge whom the Lords without discussion, and, there-the country lately lost there? Or Sir Patfore, now, in its latest stage, that circum-rick Murray, whose aquaintance with the stance increased the responsibility imposed upon this House. In Scotland there was great jealousy felt at the subversion of an ancient jurisdiction, which had always worked for the advantage of the country. It was suspected to be part of a series of changes by which the peculiar institutions of the nation were to be destroyed, and Scotland rendered a mere subordinate province of England. In discussing this Bill there were two subjects to be inquired into; first, whether a case could be made out to justify the suppression of the Court; and secondly, whether, in that event, the modements of hon. Members opposite as a of providing for the despatch of its business sufficient ground for legislation, so neither was likely to answer. With regard to the first did his right hon. friend rely on his mere question, but little could be added to the statement. He suggested an inquiry powerful statement of his right hon. friend, before a Select Committee of the House; the member for Portarlington. He regretted surely, nothing could be more fair. Various that the House was so thin when he made questions would require to be investigated that speech, which was so well calculated by that Committee, but especially the to attract attention to the subject, and causes of the great decline of judicial busileave a strong impression of the impolicyness in that Court. The practice of comof passing this Bill. They were called upon to legislate on very slight grounds and imperfect information. They had only the statements of the member for Ayr, without any reference to reports or returns in support of his facts. His Majesty's Ministers ought to have made much more inquiry into the subject before they began to legislate in so destructive a manner. Had they consulted

pounding for the penalties was the main cause. This system had been defended by the learned Attorney General, and the hon. and learned member for Stafford. But the practice as they represented it in England was very different from the abuse of it lately introduced into Scotland. The question was not whether compounding for penalties should not occasionally, and under peculiar circumstances, be admitted,

but whether it was expedient to allow it | tion before taking so important and irreuniversally, as had of late been the system vocable a step as this. With regard to the in Scotland. Not whether it should be means provided by the Bill for dischargconducted by the wisdom and discretion ing the duties of this Court, the informof the first law officer of the Crown-the ation was very imperfect. The hon. and Attorney General-but whether such a learned member for Stafford found all the power should be vested in a mere subor- information he wanted in the Bill itselfdinate officer, like the Solicitors of Excise reasons for the abolition of the Court, and and Customs. If it could be justified in a satisfactory provision for the discharge one case, why might not the practice be of its functions. He had contrived to disextended to others? This would render cover more than he (Mr. Pringle) or any nugatory Courts of any kind for the trial Gentleman who was conversant with the and punishment of offences. If the Court subject, could. All that they were told of Exchequer had not sufficient business, was, that the whole of the present duties more might be added to it. This was in were to be transferred to a single Judge of the contemplation of his right hon. friend, the Court of Session. But as to the manas he had himself stated, before he went ner in which such Judge was expected to out of office, and would have formed part discharge these duties they were kept of the great measure which he carried quite in the dark. They were left in through the Legislature last year. There doubt, too, if all the various duties of the were many subjects which might be more Barons of the Exchequer were really fitly placed under the jurisdiction of the meant to be transferred to this Judge of Court of Exchequer than any other Court. the Court of Session. If this was to be The duties of the Commission of Wines the case, it was certainly very inexpedient; were generally considered as of this de- for there were many of these duties very scription, and there seemed to be an expect- foreign to the pursuits of a Judge conation in Scotland that these would sooner stantly engrossed with his judicial funcor later be transferred to the Exchequer tions. But from some explanations of the Court. Another branch of business which hon. member for Ayr, they might infer they might fitly manage was, the depart-that the Treasury duties were to be an exment of bankruptcy concerns, and the trusts arising out of them. A third, the guardianship of the affairs of minors and lunatics, which in England belonged to the Court of Chancery, but in Scotland was vested in the Court of Session. This could never be properly discharged by a Court absorbed in judicial duties, but belonged more properly to the analogous administrative duties of the Court of Ex-struggled with very hard during the chequer. The want of a system of regular and constant superintendence in these cases had long been considered a defect in Scotland; and a much better system than the present could easily be devised. If such duties as these were devolved upon the Court of Exchequer, in addition to its other administrative duties, it would then have quite enough of business to transact. The question then was, whether this Bill ought to be proceeded in without much more ample inquiry. The measure contemplated had never received the approbation of any one of the many Commissioners who had investigated and reported on the judicial establishments of Scotland. And it would, therefore, not be doing justice to so important a measure, to deny a thorough investiga

ception. But by whom were these duties to be discharged? By some inferior officers in Scotland? or had Government any lurking design of transferring all the Treasury business at once to London? If so, the sooner they spoke out the better. He could tell them, that in Scotland such an attempt would not be very patiently submitted to. It was a point which was

Union discussion, and the retention of the Treasury functions in Scotland was very anxiously stipulated for. He could not, therefore, conceive a more violent infraction of that treaty than such an attempt. But to come back to the arrangement for transferring the business to a Judge of the Court of Session. He need not go over the very strong objections pointed out by the right hon. Baronet, to investing any single Judge, not bred to English law, with the duty of trying causes by that law. It might be doubtful whether, even in thewhole Court, this might be safely vested, but confiding it to a single Scotch Judge would be infinitely more objectionable. But before proceeding further with this Bill, it was of essential importance to inquire whether this duty could be transferred to the Court

But

of Session at all, without materially im- must apply myself to an observation, with peding its other business. The Court of which the right hon. and learned Baronet Session was already overburthened with (Sir William Rae) concluded his speech business, and ought rather to be relieved last night. He said "it would neither of a part than have an additional load of be consistent, nor respectful to the peoduty imposed upon it. Last year two ple of Scotland, to pass this Bill withJudges were cut off from that Court. But out a parliamentary inquiry." In what, the bill of 1830 was still an experiment. however, the disrespect to the people of It had not been a twelvemonth in opera- Scotland can consist, if we pass this Bill tion; and so long as its success was without further inquiry, I own I am at doubtful, it would, surely, be extremely a loss to conceive. To what degree the unwise to meddle with it, especially by people of Scotland are interested in maintransferring to it new duties. But in taining a superfluous court of justice, it Scotland there was nothing so much is not in my power to discover. Nothing dreaded as fresh changes and innovations. can be more preposterous than to imagine, For more than twenty years they had been that the people of that country feel the vexed and harassed with constant changes least anxiety to preserve this useless juin the judicial establishments. On the risdiction. Almost all the Gentlemen on whole, great improvements had been made; the opposite side used the phrase "anbut the perpetual change had itself been cient jurisdiction," at the end of most a serious evil, and most harassing to all of their periods, as if they thought that practitioners. After the bill of last year, phrase an admirable termination. an end of these alterations was expected; what does the antiquity of the jurisdicbut now they had a new Ministry, and tion signify, if it be confessedly usewere, therefore, destined to undergo a new less? and what grounds for a parliaseries of innovations. But if the Ministry mentary investigation has the hon. and would not allow time to make all those learned Baronet laid, which would not inquiries, it was impossible to do justice to have existed previous to the passing of the such a question. What harm could Act 1st Will. 4th, cap. 69? In that Act result from allowing the Bill to lie over we have his authority for making pretty till next Session of Parliament, when free with our ancient jurisdictions. By they might have more time to do it justice? it, the number of the Judges of the Court The only reason he had heard for such of Session, a number which it used to haste was one which the hon. and learned be reckoned almost sacrilege to interfere Attorney General rather hinted than spoke with, was reduced from fifteen to thirteen out upon. He seemed to connect this -a pretty large innovation-and which, Bill in some way with the Bankruptcy Bill, had it come from Gentlemen on this side of which was running a similar course. For the House, would have been visited with no some reason unexplained, it would be con- small wrath. By this Act the High Court venient for Government to carry these two of Admiralty was abolished-a jurisdicBills through the Legislature pari passu. tion, even in its late form, confessedly more But he deprecated this indecent haste. ancient than the Court of Exchequer (for If the measure were really expedient in it- it had existed in its latest form considerself, let them take time to convince the peo-ably previous to the Union) was abolished ple of Scotland that it was so. If not expedient, they would feel not only that a serious injury bad been inflicted on them, but that it had been done with a marked indifference to their interests and feelings. As a Scotch Member, he was compelled by duty to oppose this Bill, and should do so in all its stages.

by the right hon. and learned Baronet; yet there was no previous parliamentary inquiry. The Commissary Court also was abolished-a jurisdiction nearly as ancient as the Court of Session itself—no parliamentary inquiry preceding its abolition. And all this was done by the right hon. and learned Baronet and his friends, who now have so many scruples in abolishing the ancient jurisdiction of the Court of Exchequer. Why, Sir, this very Court of Exchequer, this peculiar favourite of the right hon. Gentleman, was, at the same time, reduced from four Barons to

Mr. Macleod spoke to the following effect: Mr. Speaker; As the question before the House concerns the interests of the people of Scotland, and representing, as I do, a county in that part of the United Kingdom, I beg to make a few observations on it. In the first place, Itwo; though, in 1829, five Barons, in