noble Lord suggested, that his Lordship, on account of his infirmities, should take the advantage of being seated while addressing the House. this Bill. The noble and learned Lord had said, that a noble Earl (Harrowby) who had addressed their Lordships on a former evening with so much ability against this Bill, had admitted that he was not opposed to a measure which would disfranchise some boroughs, enfranchise some of the large towns, and enlarge the number of county Members. He (Lord Wynford) did not recollect that his noble friend above him had said any such thing; but, even if he had said so, such an admission would not prove that he was at all friendly to this Bill. His noble and learned friend had gone on to argue, that his Majesty would not, in future, be able to carry on the government of this country except on the ground of Reform. Lord Wynford felt exceedingly obliged to his noble friend for the kind suggestion. Entertaining, however, as he did, the greatest respect for that House, he would endeavour, as long as he was able, to address their Lordships in the most respectful manner, and whenever he found his physical weakness increasing too much for his present exertion, he would take care to take advantage of that indulgence which he was aware their Lordships would extend to him. He would now proceed, step by step, to answer the arguments that had been advanced by the noble and learned Lord (Plunkett) on this subject. That noble Lord had commenced by stating, Lord Plunkett begged to correct the that the opponents of the Bill had left mistake into which his noble friend had the principle of it altogether untouched. fallen with regard to what he (Lord PlunHe was certain that if the noble and kett) had said. The argument in queslearned Lord found the principle of the tion, that the government of the country Bill untouched, he left it so, for he had could not be carried on if Reform was not said a word himself about it. The adopted, was one that had been used by the noble Lord had said, that it was admitted noble Duke (Wellington) on the other side, by all that some Reform was necessary. and one to which he (Lord Plunkett) had It was quite true that the question of Re-applied himself in the course of the obform was a question of degree, and they servations which he addressed to their on that side of the House who opposed Lordships last night. this Bill did not, by doing so, mean to say that they were opposed to all and every species of Reform. If they entertained such an opinion, and if they were determined to resist every effort even for a safe Reform, they would have said so to his Majesty in the Address which they presented to the King at the commencement of the Session, in answer to the Speech from the Throne, instead of pledging themselves, as they did on that occasion, to take this subject of Reform into their most serious consideration. They had applied themselves to the consideration of that subject, and if the measure which was proposed by his Majesty's Ministers was not inconsistent with the safety and security of the institutions of the country-of those institutions which he was determined to uphold as long as he had a leg to stand on-if such a measure as that had been brought forward by Ministers, he would venture to say, that it would not have been opposed on that side of the House. But they were not pledged to any specific Reform, much less were they pledged to the dangerous and destructive and revolutionary Reform which was proposed by Lord Wynford was glad to stand corrected, as he need scarcely say that he should be most unwilling to misrepresent his noble friend, and the mistake into which he had fallen had arisen from the difficulty of hearing the observations of his noble friend on the occasion in question. Considering the high reputation which his noble and learned friend had so deservedly acquired in that and the other House of Parliament, and this being almost the first time that he (Lord Wynford) had addressed their Lordships upon any great constitutional question, he should have been afraid to enter the lists with his noble and learned friend, were it not that he confided for success in the justice of his cause. The noble and learned Lord said, that his Majesty had dissolved the late Parliament in order to ascertain the sense of his people with regard to this question. Now, he (Lord Wynford) must say, that to him it appeared that that was the most unfortunate dissolution of Parliament that could ever have been made for the purpose of obtaining the sense of the people with regard to such a question as the present. If they wanted to obtain the sense of the senses knew it would never effect-namely, afford them relief from the distresses and privations under which they were suffering. On the occasion to which he was now alluding, a noble Lord, whom he did not now see in his place, and who was one of those Ministers that had advised the King to dissolve the late Parliament-he meant Lord Holland-also expressed himself against the dissolution of the Parliament of that day. Lord Holland then used the following expressions:-'The noble Lord states, that at the time of that public mind, no material difference of opinion. Why, then, was not that the moment for an appeal to the people? The ' noble Lord then states, that at the time of the last dissolution there was great irritability and collision of opinion. Is it not then clear that that was a most improper period for a dissolution of Parliament, when, instead of a cool and dispassionate appeal to the people, it could only be an appeal to their inflamed prejudices and passions?'* Such were the words of the noble Lord, words most truly applicable to the state of things at the period of the last dissolution of Parliament. The noble and learned Lord (Plunkett) spoke of the people in the way that it should be obtained, they ought to have waited for a moment of calm, when the subject could be quietly and soberly discussed, and they should not have proceeded to a dissolution of Parliament in a period of great excitement and agitation, when, as every one knew, it was absolutely impossible to ascertain the deliberate sense and opinion of the people. Their Lordships could not forget the state in which the country was at the time of the late dissolution of Parliament, and he would assert, that there never could have been a more im-dissolution there was no irritation of the proper opportunity selected for a dissolution of Parliament than that was. And now that he was upon the subject of that dissolution, he could not avoid adverting to the opinions which had been expressed by two of his Majesty's present Ministers, in reference to a dissolution of a former Parliament, which took place under circumstances, with regard to the state of the public mind, that, according to those noble Lords, rendered it impossible to obtain such a fair and impartial expression of the public opinion as ought to influence the decision of the Legislature. He would just read to their Lordships an extract from a speech delivered by the noble Earl opposite on the occasion to which he al-elections which were consequent on that luded-namely, the dissolution of Par- dissolution as having been conducted liament which took place in April, 1807. peaceably and quietly, but he subsequently After the new Parliament met, Lord confined his statement with regard to the Howick, after making some observations on elections in Ireland. He did not know the importance of the subject before the much of Ireland, but he would ask, House, went on to say Why, then, whether the election in Dublin was an 'did they take this step? In order that instance of that peace and quietness, and ' an appeal should be made to the people, good order, that the noble and learned ' as it was stated in his Majesty's Speech, Lord spoke of an election at which the 'while recent events were fresh in their re- influence of persons in official authority 'collection-in other words, during the had been employed in a way that it had ' prevalence of that base cry, which it was never been before, and which had been 'hoped would have an influence on the remarkable for the rioting and tumults • elections."* Such was then the language that had taken place at it. Were the of the noble Earl opposite-language elections in England distinguished for which was precisely applicable to the cir- peace and good order? Had not rioting cumstances under which the late dissolu- taken place at the Dorset election-at the tion of Parliament had occurred. The Carmarthen election-and at several other late Parliament had been dissolved" dur-elections throughout this country? Did ing the prevalence of a base cry" for Parliamentary Reform. That Parliament, he would repeat, was dissolved during the prevalence of such a base cry, and at a period when the people had been deluded into the notion, that this measure would do that which every man in his sober Hansard's Parl. Debates, vol. ix, p. 620. not the greatest excitement prevail throughout the country in consequence of the paragraphs which had been published in the public Press on the subject? He, therefore, denied that his noble and learned friend's observations with regard to the elections were justly applicable to the * Ibid. p. 584. H House. But there were reasonable grounds for expecting that the people would not seek to acquire any right at variance with the spirit of the Constitution. His noble friend, however, went on to say," Are not the people of England to be trusted?" God forbid that he (Lord Wynford) should characterize them-taking them as a body elections which had taken place in this country. But the noble and learned Lord said, that the immense number of petitions which had been presented on this subject, proved that the feeling of the country was in favour of this measure. Several of those petitions had been got up in the grossest manner, with several names affixed to them by the same person, and by-in any other way, than by declaring that no means afforded a fair indication of the opinions of the people. Besides, let their Lordships look to the counter petitions that had been presented on the other side. A petition had been presented by the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack, from the city of London, in favour of the Bill, but it should be recollected that a counter-petition, signed by many of the most respectable persons in the city of London, had been presented against the Bill. They had seen a petition presented from Bondstreet in favour of the Bill, but they had heard that night how that petition had been got up, and how several persons had signed it in mistake. That petition, besides, was signed by only 109 persons, while there were 201 individuals resident in Bondstreet. It might be said, that some of those householders were females; but he did not see why women had not a right to express their opinions on this question, and he was sure that, in many instances, they were much better qualified to express an opinion on it than the men. He re peated, that some of the inhabitants had signed the petition by mistake, supposing that its object was Reform generally, and not believing that it was in favour of this particular Bill. There were few on his side of the House prepared to deny the necessity or fitness of a constitutional Reform; but they would rather that their hands were cut off, than employ them in signing a petition in favour of the Ministerial Bill. His noble and learned friend had said, that their Lordships were "sitting in judgment on the people of England." Those, he believed, were the words he used. Now, though his noble friend generally expressed himself with the greatest clearness, he could not rightly understand what his noble friend meant to convey by this assertion. They were certainly sitting in judgment on the rights of the people of England; and when any petition came to be presented,requesting concessions strictly consistent with those rights, he was quite satisfied that such a petition would meet with the greatest attention from the there was not a more respectable people on the face of the earth; but while he made this ready avowal of opinion, he would maintain, point by point, that they ought only to be invested with additional rights in proportion to their capacity of comprehending them. He would not intrust them, nor any other set of men, with rights which they were not capable of exercising. That which they were capable of exercising properly-that their Lordships were prepared to extend to them. If his noble friend meant to say, that all the people of England were to be intrusted with those rights that were included in the present Bill, he for one would enter his protest, and declare, in the name of the Constitution, that the people were not to be so trusted. No doubt it would be well to give the right of electing Representatives to the upper and middle classes of society-persons too independent to be accessible to corruption. He had no objection that the privilege should be extended as far as was consistent with safety; but if his noble and learned friend meant to carry it further, then the point to which his noble friend was advancing was, Universal Suffrage, to which he never could agree. He would refuse the right of selecting Representatives to that part of the people who were not capable of exercising it properly; but he was disposed to admit to it all the better and qualified classes, although not in the manner laid down in the Bill. He considered all who were independent entitled to possess the elective right. He was not, therefore, an enemy to proper Reform, but he would not give that right to persons such as were deemed qualified by the provisions of the Bill. He would confer the right on all who were gifted with knowledge to perceive its value, and possessed of property to pronounce their opinions with independence. He was convinced that he could show that these were considerations not contemplated by the Bill, but that it went to level all distinctions between property and no property-between ignorance and knowledge. If the argument, he would again say-if | the good sense which they possessed at the argument of his noble friend, as to the bottom, would eventually dispel any deluextensive confidence to be reposed in the sion by which they might be misled for a great mass of the community, meant any time. When the agitation caused by thing, it was an argument for Universal wicked people had subsided, their own Suffrage. Sorry he was, that any person good sense would regain the ascendency, for whom he entertained the high senti-and they would return to their accustomed ments of respect that he did for his noble friend could advance any such opinions; there was, however, no room for him to doubt the fact, for he had taken down the words at the time, and was certain of the accuracy of his quotation. His noble friend had spoken of the possibility of a collision between the two Houses of Parliament [no, no]. If he had not done so, he would spare their Lordships the observations he was about to make, but he believed his noble friend had expressed his apprehension of the danger of a collision between the two Houses of Parlia-person of this country with the honours of ment. Lord Plunkett: I did speak of the chance of collision, but I did not speak of Universal Suffrage. Lord Wynford did not mean to say, that his noble friend had, in express words, pleaded for Universal Suffrage, but the mode in which he stated his case had that tendency. Lord Plunkett: I beg to set my noble friend right. I not only did not use the words" Universal Suffrage," but have all along declared myself openly against such an absurd and mischievous idea. The Duke of Cumberland having moved that the noble and learned Lord, in consideration of his infirmities, might be allowed to sit down, the Motion was acceded to, and Lord Wynford took his seat on the Opposition benches. Lord Wynford was far from wishing to put arguments in his noble friend's mouth, merely for the purpose of confuting them. He could not hope to derive much credit from such a course of proceeding, but he felt persuaded that he should be able to answer the actual arguments which had been advanced. He would now come to another observation of his noble friend's. He had stated, that he "did not see any other way of procuring safety to the country" but through the medium of this Bill. But he hoped that another way might be found without resorting to that expedient. He trusted much to the good sense of the people of this country; he was as old as his noble friend, and had seen enough of the people to know that habits of peace and industry. He was sorry to be obliged to advert to the next point touched upon by his noble friend; he regretted it for particular reasons, but as the subject had been introduced, he felt it to be absolutely necessary for him to notice it. His noble friend had spoken of the contingency of creating new Peers for the purpose of carrying the measure under consideration. He was a new Peer himself, though he had not been made for this occasion, and he did not deny the just prerogative of the Crown to reward any the Peerage; but he questioned whether, He as he had been in other places. While he | previous period. They should take care not wished to meet his noble friend among to make any dangerous alterations in the them, he wished to see merit obtain its frame of the Constitution, by which England reward; but he protested against the might be deprived of the inestimable advancreation of a great number of Peers with tages of her present position. His noble a view to carry any particular purpose. friend said, however, that notwithstanding His noble and learned friend had referred all this, the people wanted Reform. There to the Peers made in the reign of Queen were a number of persons in this country Anne; and he confessed he did not clearly who made a trade of popular excitement, understand what was intended by the and the people would continue to be excited reference. He did not know whether his until that trade was put an end to. These noble friend meant to countenance the persons only advocated the proposed alterdoctrine advanced in another place, but ations in the Constitution as the specious he considered him to be endowed with too cover of other schemes. He was warrantmuch legal learning and too much know-ed in saying this, and he was afraid that ledge of the Constitution, to broach the doctrine that the Sovereign might at pleasure discontinue the issuing of writs, calling on places possessing electoral privileges to return Representatives to Parliament. He could not believe that his noble friend would sanction such an opinion, although it had been brought forward on high authority in another House. His noble friend had mentioned the buying and selling of seats, a point which he could not pass over without some remark. He was himself a decided enemy to that practice, and if his noble friend brought a Bill into Parliament effectually to prevent it, such a Bill should have his assistance, if that assistance were held to be of any value; because he was of opinion that the circumstance of trafficking in seats in the Legislature was a stain on the Constitution of the country. The Irish Parliament had been introduced into the speech of his noble friend. He was not acquainted with the Irish Parliament; he did not know to what extent corruption had prevailed in it, but if it were in the state in which it had been represented, he was obliged to the English Parliament for putting an end to its corruption, and it deserved the fate it had experienced. He would not leave a single observation of his noble friend unanswered, and he would address himself to the concluding part of his speech, and the probable advantages that the country would derive from the adoption of the measure of Reform. For his part, he was for letting well enough alone. He was not for exchanging real good for contingent advantages. Justice was equitably administered in this country; the Army and the Navy were well appointed, elevated as they had been by the unparalleled success of the noble Duke near him, to a higher station than they had ever occupied at any the business of change would soon work out of the hands of his noble friend and his colleagues. The storm would be raised, and they would not be long able to control it. If their Lordships had read any of the publications by the seditious part of the Press, they would understand the force of his remark-they would feel that the real radical Reformers only considered the present Bill as a stepping-stone to the total overthrow of the Constitution. Others might have a greater pecuniary interest in the State than he; but he would yield to none in zeal for its welfare. His statement as to the ulterior objects of many of the advocates of Reform were borne out by a paper he had lately seen, called an "Address to the Inhabitants of the Town of Leeds," the writer of which, going upon the supposition that the people of Leeds had the power of returning Members to Parliament according to the Bill, declared the principles by which he intended to be regulated, if elected to a seat in the Legislature. He wished that he had the paper there, for such was his memory, that be had never quoted any thing in his life without making some mistake: however, he was certain that he was quite correct in the essential points of what he was about to state. He would, ere repeating the main facts of the address, take occasion to express the high respect he entertained for the right reverend bench opposite, whose interests were connected with the views of the writer of the paper to which he alluded. That projector told his constituents at Leeds, looking to their electing him as their Representative, that he would at once vote for getting rid of tithesthat was, he would do away with the property of the Church; that he would vote also for paying half the dividends of the National Debt for two years, and then |