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to many hon. Members on that side of the House, with whom he had usually acted, he should give his vote for the appointment of this Committee.

Mr. Burge could not be a party to the final adjustment of this question at such an hour as the present. If the noble Lord was right in his supposition that the Session would yet continue for some time, where was the necessity of pressing for the appointment of this Committee at such an hour as three o'clock in the morning. He begged to move that the Debate be adjourned till the next day.

cerity of purpose, he trusted that the hon. and learned Gentleman would withdraw his Motion for the adjournment of the Debate.

Mr. Hume did not understand his hon. and learned friend to object to the Motion for the appointment of the Committee, but merely to its being brought forward at this hour of the night. He wished to know whether it was intended that this Committee should take into its consideration the propriety of sending out certain Orders in Council to the West-India colonies? What he complained of was, that the Mr. Bernal regretted extremely the Government, by their interference, instead light in which his hon. and learned friend of doing those colonies any good, were, in viewed the proposition for the appointment point of fact, bringing about their ruin ; of this Committee. He regretted also, therefore, he wished to know, whether that an incidental discussion of this kind certain Orders in Council, which his Mashould have arisen upon the question, be-jesty's Government had in contemplation cause it was calculated to convey any to issue, would be delayed until the apother than a favourable impression to the pointment of this Committee? As to the minds of the parties interested. He could noble Lord's sincerity, he did not doubt it not perceive the policy of resisting the pre- for a moment; he believed him to be as sent proposition of the Government, al- anxious as any man living to relieve the though he certainly agreed with those who distresses of the colonies. thought that the best means of eliciting the Mr. Courtenay supported the motion of causes of the West-India distress, would the hon. and learned member for Eye, for be by a Committee appointed by the House the adjournment of this Debate; at the of Lords, because a Committee selected same time, he perfectly agreed with the from that body would investigate the sub- hon. member for Bramber in the propriety ject with greater calmness and temper than of appointing the Committee which the could possibly be expected from any body right hon. Gentleman had moved for, even of Members selected from that House. if this Session should very soon terminate. However, as information upon the subject His reason for supporting the Motion of was necessary, and as a means of acquir- his hon. and learned friend behind him, ing it was now offered, the West-India was, that in all his experience he never colonies would not entertain a very favour- knew a Committee of that House,appointed able opinion of the sincerity of that House without previous debate, which did not fail of to remedy the evils under which they were attaining the object for which it was appointsuffering, if that offer were rejected. He ed. This was the result of the experience of would not inquire whether the Committee was many years; therefore,without the slightest likely to sit for a month or for much longer; hostility to the noble Lord, or to the Mobut he saw no earthly reason why the ques- tion which the right hon. Gentleman had tion of its appointment should be post-submitted, he concurred in the propriety poned. As for discussion, he himself of postponing the further consideration of could speak for five hours upon the ques- the subject till next day. tion, and many others could do the same; but this was quite unnecessary. As to the assertion that the members of the Government had this night deliberately stood up in their places to submit a proposition for the purpose of deluding such great interests as those of the West Indies, he would refute it as unfounded, and as utterly unworthy of those who had advanced it. Knowing his noble friend, in pressing for the appointment of this Committee to be actuated by no other than an honest sin

Mr. Burge vindicated himself from a charge which he thought extremely unjustnamely, that, in proposing the adjournment of the Debate upon this question, he was not acting with fairness towards the Government. He never accused the noble Lord of delusion; but understanding that it was his intention to bring forward this Motion to-night, he had intimated to him the inconvenience of doing so, in consequence of the absence of many who were anxious to make some observations upon

it. He did not object to the appointment | colonies and the mother country, they of the Committee, but to the Motion being could not do better than adopt this Order pressed forward at that late hour. in Council. He had not seen one individual connected with the West Indies who did not protest against such an Order being sent out. With respect to the question more immediately before the House, in his opinion it was most improper to press so important a matter forward after three o'clock in the morning. He joined with those, therefore, who wished to postpone the further debate upon the question.

Lord Althorp said, that when he thought of the appointment of this Committee, it undoubtedly did not occur to him, as a desireable course, that they should previously have a long debate on the affairs of the West Indies. All that could be advanced in such a debate would be much better reserved for the consideration of the Committee, by whom it would be treated with greater calmness and temper. It was upon that ground that he postponed the Motion Mr. Burge said, if he had abstained for the appointment of the Committee till from entering into the question of thi that evening; it was upon that ground Order in Council, it was not because he that he persevered in the Motion now. was insensible to its importance, and to its answer to the question which was put by the impropriety, but because he thought that hon. member for Middlesex, he would state, the present was not the most convenient that it certainly was not his intention to enter opportunity for discussing it. His only into the question between master and slave object in rising now was, to withdraw his in this Committee. That was a separate Motion for the adjournment of the Debate question, and demanded a separate con- upon the question of the appointment of sideration. Therefore, as the Order in the Committee proposed by the noble Council to which the hon. Gentleman had Lord. His sole object in doing so was to alluded, applied principally to that ques-prevent the possibility of its being suption, it ought not to come under the consideration of this Committee.

In

Sir Charles Forbes, as a friend to the WestIndia interests, could only say, that he

posed that he would stand in the way of any inquiry being made into the state of the West Indies.

Amendment withdrawn.-Main Ques

should be glad to see this Committee ap-tion agreed to, and Select Committee appointed. It would be a pity that any pointed. means of inquiry, particularly when offered by the Government, should be resisted.

Mr. Ewart expressed his full concurrence in the propriety of the Motion for the appointment of this Committee. It was highly desirable that an inquiry should take place.

Mr. Irving asked the noble Lord, whether it was the intention of his Majesty's Government to send out to the West Indies the Order in Council which had been lately prepared, either now or in the course of some short time? He asked, because he was convinced that, whenever it might be sent, the colonies would not submit to it.

Lord Howick thought this no convenient time to discuss an Order in Council which had not yet been prepared. It was the intention of Government, with the shortest possible delay, to pass that Order in Council, with such alterations and improvements as might seem necessary, and then to recommend it to the adoption of the colonies.

Mr. Hume said, if the Government were anxious to excite a civil war between the

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HOUSE OF LORDS,

Friday, October 7, 1831.

MINUTES.] Bill. Read a second time Cotton Factories.

Petitions presented. In favour of Reform. By the Earl of

CAMPERDOWN, from the Inhabitants of Weem, Bal-
quhider, Kenmere, Kisen, Fortingal, and Diell:-By the
Earl of RADNOR, from Hungerford and Maidenhead :-
By the Earl of CARLISLE, from Maulton:-By Viscount
CLIFDEN, from Greig Ullard and Powerstoun:-By a
NOBLE LORD, from Beeralston and Berferris :-By
the Bishop of CHICHESTER, from Huntingdon :-By
the Earl of GOSFORD, from Beccles, signed by 500 persons:
-By the LORD CHANCELLOR, from the Law Courts of
Glasgow, Bolingbroke, and several other places. Against
Reform. By the Duke of WELLINGTON, from Fordwich,
in favour of the Extension of the Galway Franchise to
Catholics :-By the Earl of RADNOR, from the Protestant
Inhabitants of Cara Broun :-By the Marquis of Down-
SHIRE, from the Catholic Inhabitants of Nunns Island:
-By the Earl of ELDON, from the Protestant Freemen of
Galway; the Protestant Freemen of the Corporation of
Galway, and the Protestant Merchants of Galway, three
Petitions. By the same NOBLE EARL, from the Clergy
of Northampton and adjoining Parishes, against the Con-
sumption of Beer on the premises of Licensed Beer Houses:
-By the Earl of RADNOR, from the Owners and Occu-
piers of Land in the Hundred of Willow, for an alteration
of the Tithe System; from the Inhabitants of Raheen
(Ireland), praying for the disarming of the Yeomanry;
and from the Cordwainers of Bristol, for the Repeal of
Taxes in the Diffusion of Knowledge.

EDUCATION (IRELAND).] The Mar

quis of Downshire presented a Petition | champion of Reform in Parliament. It from the town of Coleraine and its vicinity, was his conviction, often expressed and in favour of the Kildare-street Society. He often repeated, that no honest man could had long acted as President of that Society, be Minister under the present system of and had taken an active part in the exten- misrepresentation; and he had been fresion of education in Ireland upon its prin- quently heard to declare, in his most ciples, and he had always found the So- emphatic manner, that neither the Miciety animated by a strong desire to effect nister, nor even the King on his Throne, the object proposed by the Society, and an could act independently against the boanxious wish to do justice to the public. roughmongering oligarchy which pressed He, therefore, regretted to understand upon the energies of the country. It had that arrangements were about to be made been said that Mr. Pitt had abandoned his to take away the grant from that Society. early opinions on this subject. This was As to the distribution of the public money an error; for when he (the Marquis of with which it had been intrusted, he had Westminster) was somewhat connected always desired it to be applied universally, with the Government of Mr. Pitt, and exas commanded by the words "for the pressed to him his anxiety to bring forward Education of the Poor of Ireland." a measure of Parliamentary Reform, Mr. Pitt told him he was as ardent as ever for such a measure, was as convinced as ever of the necessity of it to the welfare, aye, to the salvation of the country, but that it would be hopeless to then contend with the borough oligarchy, which had such an interest in resisting it.

Lord Carbery was ready to prove that the Kildare-street Society had been of great benefit to Ireland, by contributing to the extension of education in that country. The poor of Ireland had been in the lowest state of degradationwhen the Society commenced its labours. He could declare, from personal knowledge, that the model and training schools for masters were highlyefficient, and that the books in use were those recommended by Dr. Doyle himself. He, therefore, hoped Parliament would continue to give it every encouragement.

Petition laid on the Table.

REFORM-PETITIONS.] The Marquis of Westminster, on presenting a Petition in favour of the Reform Bill, from Dukinfield, in Cheshire, said, he was anxious to repeat his emphatic conviction, that Parliamentary Reform, in the spirit and to the extent of the measure of Ministers, was essential to the very safety and welfare of the country. This had been his conviction in early life, and experience but served to add to its strength and intensity. It was also the conviction of the wisest and honestest Statesmen that it had been his fortune to come in contact with. He was confident that were Mr. Canning and Mr. Huskisson now living, they would be the advocates of Reform, for they had ever acted upon the principle that no Government could be carried on with general advantage which was opposed to the unanimous feelings of the people, Mr. Pitt, at all events, was an authority which ought to prevail with many of his so-called followers who were opposed to the Bill, for, from the dawn of his political career to the last moment of his existence, he was the

Petition laid on the Table.

Lord Wharncliffe presented a petition from the Gentry, Clergy, and Inhabitants of the town of Beverley, expressing their opinion that no necessity did, and no necessity could, justify such an important alteration in the Constitution of the country as was about to be introduced by the present Reform Bill; that they were extremely desirous to see some wholesome alterations effected in the representative system of this country, which, would be a real amendment of the abuses in it, and which would tend to the safety, honour, and glory of the British dominions. The petitioners concluded by praying their Lordships calmly and deliberately to weigh and consider the present Bill, and not to suffer their determination with regard to it to be swayed by the fear of popular resentment. The noble Lord said, that he was enabled, from his own local knowledge of Beverley, to state, that this petition was signed by a majority of the magistrates, by the members of the learned professions, by the clergy, and by almost all the respectable inhabitants in that place.

The Marquis of Cleveland said, the noble. Lord opposite had stated that the feeling in favour of this Bill had diminished greatly in the city of Westminster, and he particularly mentioned Bond-street and St. James's-street as districts where the inhabitants were not now, generally speak

in favour of Reform generally, instead of this Bill in particular. That was the petition which had been thrust with such breathless haste into the carriage of the noble Lord (Lord Holland) on his way to that House.

The Duke of Richmond thought, that conversations of this kind were extremely irregular. He was of opinion that Colonel Webster, who was the person alluded to, had a perfect right to go about and see what was the feeling of the inhabitants of that district, and that no attack should be made upon him for doing so. For his own part, he was sure that the feeling of the great majority of the inhabitants of the city of Westminster was in favour of this Bill; and he was equally certain, that if their Lordships should, on the present occasion, reject this measure (a thing which he would never believe until he saw it done), they would, in a very short time, give their assent to a Bill of a precisely similar description.

ing, friendly to this Bill. Having pre-
sented a petition from the inhabitants of
the parish of St. Mary-in-the-Strand, in
favour of the Bill, he (the Marquis of
Cleveland), on hearing this statement from
the noble Baron, began to fear that he
either had been imposed upon, or that he
had mistaken the prayer of the petitioners.
He accordingly made it a point to commu-
nicate yesterday with the persons who had
intrusted that petition to his care, and he
found that he had by no means misunder-
stood the object of their petition; and he
was further informed by them, that nine
out of ten of the inhabitants in that and
the adjoining parishes were most anxious
for the passing of the Reform Bill. He had
that morning, too, received a letter on the
subject from as opulent and loyal an indi-
vidual as was to be found in the city of
Westminster, and he supposed, that as
newspapers and pamphlets were frequently
referred to in the course of these debates,
he should not be out of order in referring
to the contents of this letter. The writer
stated, that the parish with which he was
connected, that of St. Mary-in-the-street.
Strand, as well as the adjoining parishes
of St. Paul, Covent-garden, St. Clement
Danes, and St. Martin-in-the-Fields, had
all met on Friday last, and agreed to
petition that House in favour of the Re-
form Bill, and that there appeared only
one dissentient in those four parishes to
the adoption of such petitions. As far as
his intercourse with the inhabitants of
Bond-street and St. James's-street led
him to a knowledge of their opinions, he
was enabled to contradict the assertion of
the noble Baron that they were indifferent,
or opposed to this Bill, and to state that
their anxiety was greater than ever for its

success.

Lord Feversham wished to state a circumstance which had been mentioned to him within the last two hours by a most respectable inhabitant of Bond-street, in reference to the getting up of a petition which had been presented by a noble Baron(Lord Holland), whom he did not now see in his place, from that street, in favour of the Reform Bill. It was stated to him by that individual, that a person of consideration went about Bond-street the day after the delivery of the speech of his noble friend (Lord Wharncliffe), and canvassed in the various shops there for signatures to a Reform petition, and that many of the inhabitants signed it, thinking that it was

Lord Wharncliffe imagined that their Lordships had heard enough of Bond

He had certainly unfortunately mentioned that street, but it was as a general observation; however, as a gentleman had taken the trouble to get a petition from the inhabitants of that street, he thought that would have the effect of removing any impression which his accidental observation might be supposed to convey. He still maintained the opinion, notwithstanding all he had heard stated, that the feeling in London, though it might be in favour of Reform, was not, in general, in favour of this Bill.

Petition to lie on the Table.

PARLIAMENTARY REFORM-BILL FOR ENGLAND - SECOND READING ADJOURNED DEBATE-FIFTH DAY.] The Order of the Day read for the resumption of the Debate on the Reform of Parliament (England) Bill.

Lord Wynford proceeded to address the House. The noble Lord commenced by observing that he was fully sensible of the difficulties of the situation in which he then stood. He was duly impressed with a proper estimate of the ability, the practised ability, in debating, of the noble and learned Lord who had concluded the discussion last night, and whose speech he now purposed to answer, and it was impossible for him not to desire to shrink from the comparison which would be

raised between his poor and feeble efforts | creed-those were his political principles; and the splendid display of that noble and and he was sure that, whatever might be learned individual to whose arguments he the opinion which prevailed out of doors was now about to address himself. Con- generally with regard to this Bill, he should scious as he was of his inability to grapple be soon joined by the better portion of the with that noble and learned Lord, but public in the sentiments which he now feeling that in the present great and dread- felt it his duty to express upon the subject. ful crisis, it was the duty and the business He was quite confident that the feeling of every man in the empire to endeavour to which had been artificially excited and employ what little talents he might pos- kept up in favour of this Bill was fast dying sess against this measure, he was deter- away-that the delusion which had been mined, as an independent member of the practised on the people was in rapid proBritish Legislature, to raise his voice gress towards a termination-and that the against this Bill, and he was confident period was quickly approaching when the that the goodness of his cause would make sober-minded and influential portion of up for any deficiency on his part in his the British community would regard this attempt to answer the arguments which Bill in the light which he now viewed ithad been adduced by the noble and namely, not as a measure of Reform, but learned Lord. That noble and learned as a measure of revolution-as a measure Lord commenced his speech by saying that necessarily led to a revolution of a that it was his intention to grapple most desperate character, completely dewith the principle of the Bill, and he was structive of the Constitution of England, delighted to hear an announcement at and of all those principles of that glorious length made from that side of the House, Constitution which guaranteed the sethat they were to have some discussion curity of property, and the maintenance of about the principle of the Bill, convinced as order, regularity, and peace. Impressed he was, that he should be standing upon with that feeling, he should notwithstandvantage ground, in dealing with any argu- ing the difficulties that he had to contend ments that might be brought forward with with, endeavour to lay before their Lordregard to the principle of the measure. ships a true picture of the evils that might Unfortunately, however, though the noble be fairly anticipated from the present Bill. and learned Lord set out with that an- In the performance of that task he had to nouncement, he soon followed the exam- struggle with the bad state of his health, ple of his colleagues who had preceded and with the infirmities of age, and it was him he soon deserted the principle of the possible that the infirmities of the flesh measure, and, leaving that to be still ex- might more than overcome the energies of plained to the House, he proceeded to the spirit. Trusting, however, to their attack the existing system, without stating Lordships' kind indulgence, he should a word in defence of the principle of that proceed with the observations which he which it was proposed to substitute in its felt it his duty to address to them. He stead. Not one noble Lord, indeed, in- would endeavour, in the first instance, to cluding the noble Earl who opened the reply to the arguments that had been emDebate, had yet undertaken to say what ployed by his noble and learned friend was the principle of the Bill. They had (Lord Plunkett). When he had done contented themselves with attacking the that, he would then proceed to notice system that now existed, and they re- some of the assertions-he would not call frained from even attempting the defence them the arguments-which had been adof that which they purposed to substitute vanced in the course of this discussion, by in its place. One noble Lord had ven- some of the noble Lords opposite, with tured on a variety of topics, including a regard to the character of the Bill; and voyage by water and a journey by land. when he had gone through that task, he He was not disposed to go on either of would then apply himself to "the Bill, these excursions; but as long as he had a the whole Bill, and nothing but the Bill." leg to stand on he would take his place He trusted that he should be able to prove, on Constitution-hill, in defence of the to the satisfaction of their Lordships and prerogatives of the Crown, the privileges of the public, that this Bill was pregnant and independence of both Houses of Par- with destruction to the best interests of liament, and the just rights and liberties the country at large. of the people. That was his political

Lord Teynham, here interrupting the

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