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to many hon. Members on that side of the cerity of purpose, he trusted that the hon. House, with whom he had usually acted, and learned Gentleman would withdraw he should give his vote for the appoint- bis Motion for the adjournment of the ment of this Committee.
Debate. Mr. Burge could not be a party to the Mr. Hume did not understand his hon. final adjustment of this question at such and learned friend to object to the Motion an hour as the present. If the noble for the appointment of the Committee, Lord was right in his supposition that the but merely to its being brought forward at Session would yet continue for some time, this hour of the night. He wished to know where was the necessity of pressing for the whether it was intended that this Commitappointment of this Committee at such an tee should take into its consideration the hour as three o'clock in the morning. He propriety of sending out certain Orders begged to move that the Debate be ad- in Council to the West-India colonies ? journed till the next day.
What he complained of was, that the Mr. Bernal regretted extremely the Government, by their interference, instead light in which his hon. and learned friend of doing those colonies any good, were, in viewed the proposition for the appointment point of fact, bringing about their ruin; of this Committee. He regretted also, therefore, he wished to know, whether that an incidental discussion of this kind certain Orders in Council, which his Mashould have arisen upon the question, be-jesty's Government had in contemplation cause it was calculated to convey any to issue, would be delayed until the apother than a favourable impression to the pointment of this Committee? As to the minds of the parties interested. He could noble Lord's sincerity, he did not doubt it not perceive the policy of resisting the pre- for a moment; he believed him to be as sent proposition of the Government, al- anxious as any man living to relieve the though he certainly agreed with those who distresses of the colonies. thought that the best means of eliciting the Mr. Courtenay supported the motion of causes of the West-India distress, would the hon. and learned member for Eye, for be by a Committee appointed by the House the adjournment of this Debate; at the of Lords, because a Committee selected same time, he perfectly agreed with the from that body would investigate the sub- hon. member for Bramber in the propriety ject with greater calmness and temper than of appointing the Committee which the could possibly be expected from any body right hon. Gentleman had moved for, even of Members selected from that House. if this Session should very soon terminate. However, as information upon the subject His reason for supporting the Motion of was necessary, and as a means of acquir. his hon. and learned friend behind him, ing it was now offered, the West-India was, that in all his experience he never colonies would not entertain a very favour knew a Committee of that House,appointed able opinion of the sincerity of that House without previous debate, which did not failof to remedy the evils under which they were attaining the object for which it was appointsuffering, if that offer were rejected. He ed. This was the result of the experience of would notinquirewhether theCommitteewas many years; therefore, without the slightest likely to sit for a month or for much longer; hostility to the noble Lord, or to the Mobut he saw no earthly reason why the question which the right hon. Gentleman had tion of its appointment should be post- submitted, he concurred in the propriety poned. As for discussion, he himself of postponing the further consideration of could speak for five hours upon the ques. the subject till next day: tion, and many others could do the same; Mr. Burge vindicated himself from a but this was quite unnecessary. As to the charge which he thought extremely unjustassertion that the members of the Govern- namely, that, in proposing the adjournment ment had this night deliberately stood up of the Debate upon this question, he was in their places to submit a proposition for not acting with fairness towards the Gothe purpose of deluding such great interests vernment. He never accused the noble as those of the West Indies, he would Lord of delusion ; but understanding that refute it as unfounded, and as utterly it was his intention to bring forward this unworthy of those who had advanced it. Motion to-night, he had intimated to him Knowing his noble friend, in pressing for the inconvenience of doing so, in consethe appointment of this Committee to be quence of the absence of many who were actuated by no other than an honest sin- anxious to make some observations upon it. He did not object to the appointment (colonies and the mother country, they of the Committee, but to the Motion being could not do better than adopt this Order pressed forward at that late hour.
in Council. He had not seen one indiviLord Althorp said, that when he thought dual connected with the West Indies who of the appointment of this Committee, it did not protest against such an Order undoubtedly did not occur to him, as a de- being sent out. With respect to the sireable course, that they should previously question more immediately before the have a long debate on the affairs of the House, in his opinion it was most improWest Indies. All that could be advanced per to press so important a matter forward in such a debate would be much better after three o'clock in the morning. He reserved for the consideration of the Com- joined with those, therefore, who wished to mittee, by whom it would be treated with postpone the further debate upon the ques. greater calmness and temper. It was upon tion. that ground that he postponed the Motion Mr. Burge said, if he had abstained for the appointment of the Committee till from entering into the question of thi that evening; it was upon that ground Order in Council, it was not because he that he persevered in the Motion now. In was insensible to its importance, and to its answer to the question which was put by the impropriety, but because he thought that hon, member for Middlesex, he would state, the present was not the most convenient that it certainly was not his intention to enter opportunity for discussing it. His only into the question between master and slave object in rising now was, to withdraw his in this Committee. That was a separate Motion for the adjournment of the Debate question, and demanded a separate con- upon the question of the appointment of sideration. Therefore, as the Order in the Committee proposed by the noble Council to which the hon. Gentleman had Lord. His sole object in doing so was to alluded, applied principally to that ques- prevent the possibility of its being sup. tion, it ought not to come under the con- posed that he would stand in the way of sideration of this Committee.
any inquiry being made into the state of Sir Charles Forbes,as a friend to the West- the West Indies. India interests, could only say, that he
Amendment withdrawn.-Main Quesshould be glad to see this Committee ap- tion agreed to, and Select Committee appointed. It would be a pity that any pointed. means of inquiry, particularly when offered by the Government, should be resisted. Mr.Ewartexpressed his full concurrence
II ( USE OF LORDS, in the propriety of the Motion for the ap- Friday, October 7, 1831. pointment of this Committee.
MINUTES.] Bill. Read a second time Cotton Factories. highly desirable that an inquiry should Petitions presented. In favour of Reform. By the Earl of
CAMPERDOWN, from the Inhabitants of Weem, Bal
quhider, Kenmere, Kisen, Fortingal, and Diell:-By the Mr. Irving asked the noble Lord, Earl of RADNOR, from Hungerford and Maidenhead: whether it was the intention of his Ma
By the Earl of CARLISLB, from Maulton:-By Viscount
CLIFDEN, from Greig Ullard and Powerstoun :---By a jesty's Government to send out to the
and Berferris :-By West Indies the Order in Council which the Bishop of CHICHESTER, from Huntingdon :-By
the Earl of Gosford), from Beccles, signed by 500 persons: had been lately prepared, either now or in
-By the LORD CHANCELLOR, from the Law Courts of the course of some short time? He asked, Glasgow, Bolingbroke, and several other places. Against because he was convinced that, whenever Reform. By the Duke of WELLINGTON, from Fordwich,
in favour of the Extension of the Galway Franchise to it might be sent, the colonies would not
Catholics :-By the Earl of RADNOR, from the Protectant submit to it.
Inhabitants of Cara Broun :-By the Marquis of DownLord Howick thought this no convenient
SHIRE, from the Catholic Inhabitants of Nunns Island:
-By the Earl of Eldon, from the Protestant Freemen of time to discuss an Order in Council which
Galway; the Protestant Freemen of the Corporation of had not yet been prepared. It was the in- Galway, and the Protestant Merchants of Galway, three tention of Government, with the shortest
Petitions. By the same NOBLE Eart, from the Clergy
of Northampton and adjoining Parishes, against the Conpossible delay, to pass that Order in Coun- sumption of Beer on the premises of Licensed Beer Houses: cil, with such alterations and improve- - By the Earl of RADNOR, from the Owners and Occu
piers of Land in the Hundred of Willow, for an alteration ments as might seem necessary, and then
of the Tithe System ; from the Inhabitants of Raheen to recommend it to the adoption of the (Ireland), praying for the disarming of the Yeomanry; colonies.
and from the Cordwainers of Bristol, for the Repeal of
Taxes in the Diffusion of Knowledge. Mr. Hume said, if the Government were anxious to excite a civil war between the EDUCATION (IRELAND).] The Mar.
NOBLE LORD, from Beeralston
quis of Downshire presented a Petition champion of Reform in Parliament. It from the town of Coleraine and its vicinity, was his conviction, often expressed and in favour of the Kildare-street Society. He often repeated, that no honest man could had long acted as President of that Society, be Minister under the present system of and had taken an active part in the exten- misrepresentation ; and he had been fresion of education in Ireland upon its prin- quently heard to declare, in his most ciples, and he had always found the So- emphatic manner, that neither the Miciety animated by a strong desire to effect nister, nor even the King on his Throne, the object proposed by the Society, and an could act independently against the boanxious wish to do justice to the public. roughmongering oligarchy which pressed He, therefore, regretted to understand upon the energies of the country. It had that arrangements were about to be made been said that Mr. Pitt had abandoned his to take away the grant from that Society. early opinions on this subject. This was As to the distribution of the public money an error; for when he (the Marquis of with which it had been intrusted, he had Westminster) was somewhat connected always desired it to be applied universally, with the Government of Mr. Pitt, and exas commanded by the words “ for the pressed to him his anxiety to bring forward Education of the Poor of Ireland.” a measure of Parliamentary Reform, Mr.
Lord Carbery was ready to prove that Pitt told him he was as ardent as ever for theKildare-street Society had been of great such a measure, was as convinced as ever of benefit to Ireland, by contributing to the the necessity of it to the welfare, aye, to the extension of education in that country. The salvation of the country, but that it would poor of Ireland had been in the lowest state be hopeless to then contend with the boof degradationwhen the Societycommenced rough oligarchy, which had such an interits labours. He could declare, from per- est in resisting it. sonal knowledge, that the model and train- Petition laid on the Table. ing schools for masters were highlyefficient, Lord Wharncliffe presented a petition and that the books in use were those recom- from the Gentry, Clergy, and Inhabitants mended by Dr. Doyle himself. He, there of the town of Beverley, expressing their fore, hoped Parliament would continue to opinion that no necessity did, and no give it every encouragement.
necessity could, justify such an important Petition laid on the Table.
alteration in the Constitution of the country
as was about to be introduced by the preREFORM—Petitions.] The Marquis sent Reform Bill; that they were exof Westminster, on presenting a Petition tremely desirous to see some wholesome in favour of the Reform Bill, from Duk- alterations effected in the representative infield, in Cheshire, said, he was anx- system of this country, which would be ious to repeat his emphatic conviction, that a real amendment of the abuses in it, Parliamentary Reform, in the spirit and to and which would tend to the safety, the extent of the measure of Ministers, honour, and glory of the British dominions. was essential to the very safety and welfare The petitioners concluded by praying their of the country. This had been his convic- Lordships calmly and deliberately to weigh tion in early life, and experience but served and consider the present Bill, and not to to add to its strength and intensity. It suffer their determination with regard to it was also the conviction of the wisest and to be swayed by the fear of popular resenthonestest Statesmen that it had been his ment. The noble Lord said, that he was fortune to come in contact with. He enabled, from his own local knowledge of was confident that were Mr. Canning and Beverley, to state, that this petition was Mr. Huskisson now living, they would be signed by a majority of the magistrates, the advocates of Reform, for they had ever by the members of the learned professions, acted upon the principle that no Govern- by the clergy, and by almost all the rement could be carried on with general spectable inhabitants in that place. advantage which was opposed to the unani- The Marquis of Cleveland said, the noble mous feelings of the people, Mr. Pitt, at Lord opposite had stated that the feeling all events, was an authority which ought in favour of this Bill had diminished greatly to prevail with many of his so-called fol- in the city of Westminster, and he partilowers who were opposed to the Bill, for, cularly mentioned Bond-street and St. from the dawn of his political career to the James's-street as districts where the inlast moment of his existence, he was the habitants were not now, generally speaking, friendly to this Bill. Having pre-l in favour of Reform generally, instead of sented a petition from the inhabitants of this Bill in particular. That was the the parish of St. Mary-in-the-Strand, in petition which had been thrust with such favour of the Bill, he (the Marquis of breathless baste into the carriage of the Cleveland), on hearing this statement from noble Lord (Lord Holland) on his way to the noble Baron, began to fear that he that House. either had been imposed upon, or that he The Duke of Richmond thought, that had mistaken the prayer of the petitioners. conversations of this kind were extremely He accordingly made it a point to commu- irregular. He was of opinion that Colonel nicate yesterday with the persons who had Webster, who was the person alluded lo, intrusted that petition to bis care, and he had a perfect right to go about and see found that he had by no means misunder- what was the feeling of the inhabitants of stood the object of their petition; and he that district, and that no attack should be was further informed by them, that nine made upon him for doing so. For his own out of ten of the inhabitants in that and part, he was sure that the feeling of the the adjoining parishes were most anxious great majority of the inhabitants of the for the passing of the Reform Bill. He had city of Westminster was in favour of this that morning, too, received a letter on the Bill; and he was equally certain, that if subject from as opulent and loyal an indi-their Lordships should, on the present vidual as was to be found in the city of occasion, reject this measure (a thing Westminster, and he supposed, that as which he would never believe until he saw newspapers and pamphlets were frequently it done), they would, in a very short time, referred to in the course of these debates, give their assent to a Bill of a precisely he should not be out of order in referring similar description. to the contents of this letter. The writer Lord Wharncliffe imagined that their stated, that the parish with which lie was Lordships had heard enough of Bondconnected, that of St. Mary-in-the-street. He had certainly unfortunately Strand, as well as the adjoining parishes mentioned that street, but it was as a of St. Paul, Covent-garden, St. Clement general observation; however, as a gentleDanes, and St. Martin-in-the-Fields, had man had taken the trouble to get a petition all met on Friday last, and agreed to from the inhabitants of that street, he petition that House in favour of the Re- thought that would have the effect of form Bill, and that there appeared only removing any impression which his accione dissentient in those four parishes to dental observation might be supposed to the adoption of such petitions. As far as convey. He still maintained the opinion, his intercourse with the inhabitants of notwithstanding all he had heard stated, Bond-street and St. James's-street led that the feeling in London, though it might him to a knowledge of their opinions, he be in favour of Reform, was not, in general, was enabled to contradict the assertion of in favour of this Bill. the noble Baron that they were indifferent, Petition to lie on the Table. or opposed to this Bill, and to state that their anxiety was greater than ever for its PARLIAMENTARY Reform-Bill for success.
ENGLAND - SECOND READING - ADLord Feversham wished to state a cir- JOURNED DEBATE-FIFTH DAY.] The cumstance which had been mentioned to Order of the Day read for the resumption him within the last two hours by a most of the Debate on the Reform of Parliarespectable inhabitant of Bond-street, in ment (England) Bill. reference to the getting up of a petition Lord Wynford proceeded to address which had been presented by a noble the House. The noble Lord commenced Baron(Lord Holland), whom he did not now by observing that he was fully sensible of see in his place, from that street, in favour the difficulties of the situation in which he of the Reform Bill. It was stated to him then stood. He was duly impressed with by that individual, that a person of con- a proper estimate of the ability, the pracsideration went about Bond-street the day tised ability, in debating, of the noble and after the delivery of the speech of his noble learned Lord who had concluded the disfriend (Lord Wharncliffe), and canvassed cussion last night, and whose speech he in the various shops there for signatures to now purposed to answer, and it was ima Reform petition, and that many of the possible for not to desire to shrink inhabitants signed it, thinking that it was I from the comparison which would be raised between his poor and feeble efforts, creed-those were his political principles; and the splendid display of that noble and and he was sure that, whatever might be learned individual to whose arguments he the opinion which prevailed out of doors was now about to address himself
. Con- generally with regard to this Bill, he should scious as he was of his inability to grapple be soon joined by the better portion of the with that noble and learned Lord, but public in the sentiments which he now feeling that in the present great and dread- felt it his duty to express upon the subject. ful crisis, it was the duty and the business He was quite confident that the feeling of every man in the empire to endeavour to which had been artificially excited and employ what little talents he might pos- kept up in favour of this Bill was fast dying sess against this measure, he was deter- away—that the delusion which had been mined, as an independent member of the practised on the people was in rapid proBritish Legislature, to raise his voice gress towards a termination--and that the against this Bill, and he was confident period was quickly approaching when the that the goodness of his cause would make sober-minded and influential portion of up for any deficiency on his part in his the British coinmunity would regard this attempt to answer the arguments which Bill in the light which he now viewed it-had been adduced by the noble and namely, not as a measure of Reform, but learned Lord. That noble and learned as a measure of revolution as a measure Lord commenced his speech by saying that necessarily led to a revolution of a that it was his intention to grapple most desperate character, completely dewith the principle of the Bill, and he was structive of the Constitution of England, delighted to hear an announcement at and of all those principles of that glorious length made from that side of the House, Constitution which guaranteed ihe sethat they were to have some discussion curity of property, and the maintenance of about the principle of the Bill, convinced as order, regularity, and peace. Impressed he was, that he should be standing upon with that feeling, he should notwithstandvantage ground, in dealing with any argu- ing the difficulties that he had to contend ments that might be brought forward with with, endeavour to lay before their Lordregard to the principle of the measure. ships a true picture of the evils that might Unfortunately, however, though the noble be fairly anticipated from the present Bill. and learned Lord set out with that an- In the performance of that task he had to nouncement, he soon followed the exam- struggle with the bad state of his health, ple of his colleagues who had preceded and with the infirmities of age, and it was him-he soon deserted the principle of the possible that the infirmities of the flesh measure, and, leaving that to be still ex- might more than overcome the energies of plained to the House, he proceeded to the spirit. Trusting, however, to their attack the existing system, without stating Lordships' kind indulgence, he should a word in defence of the principle of that proceed with the observations which he which it was proposed to substitute in its felt it his duty to address to them. He stead. Not one noble Lord, indeed, in- would endeavour, in the first instance, to cluding the noble Earl who opened the reply to the arguments that had been emDebate, had yet undertaken to say what ployed by his noble and learned friend was the principle of the Bill. They had (Lord Plunkett). When he had done contented themselves with attacking the that, he would then proceed to notice system that now existed, and they re- some of the assertions-- he would not call frained from even attempting the defence them the arguments—which had been adof that which they purposed to substitute vanced in the course of this discussion, by in its place. One noble Lord had ven- some of the noble Lords opposite, with tured on a variety of topics, including a regard to the character of the Bill; and voyage by water and a journey by land. when he had gone through that task, he He was not disposed to go on either of would then apply himself to “the Bill, these excursions ; but as long as he had a the whole Bill, and nothing but the Bill.” leg to stand on he would take his place He trusted that he should be able to prove, on Constitution-bill, in defence of the to the satisfaction of their Lordships and prerogatives of the Crown, the privileges of the public, that this Bill was pregnant and independence of both Houses of Par- with destruction to the best interests of liament, and the just rights and liberties the country at large. of the people. That was his political Lord Teynham, here interrupting the