Now, then, this committee in writing the 1924 act went uphill and downhill and forward and backward on the question of whether we should have an exemption for skilled labor if like kind could not be found in the United States; and after mature reflection, and after a showing made by the late Representative Rucker, of California, and myself before the executives of the American Federation of Labor, we put it in. That showing took two hours, for the reason it is very easy to confuse highly skilled contract labor with skilled contract labor. In fact, who can say, unless you have all the words there in the bill like the Free bill, where does common labor end and skilled labor begin?

Mr. Box. Don't we have that very question in the complaint that American musicians are now making?

The CHAIRMAN. I am coming to that in just a minute.

So after a full showing, which was brought about so we could explain it to Members of Congress, who were determined to have heavier and heavier restrictions of immigration, this committee in its wisdom, after working three years on the drafting of the 1924 act, put in a clause exempting highly skilled contract labor. We inserted the word "highly."

Now, the bill was considered in Senate committee; and the then Commissioner of Immigration at Ellis Island, N. Y., Mr. Curran, argued to the Senate committee that each exemption meant more problems for the administrators of the law, and that the few exemption the better. You see, at that time we intended this highly skilled contract labor to be outside the quota. Under the showing made in the Senate committee they took it out.

When we came to conference between the several Senate conferees and the several House conferees, it was a case of give and take. The time was approaching rapidly when the 1921 temporary quota law would expire, and the conferees of this committee, two of whom are now dead, gave in to the Senate appeal and let the highly skilled contract labor exemption go out of the bill which was then in conference between the two Houses. I thought then it was a mistake. I have had every reason to believe ever since that it brought about confusion, subterfuge, and trouble; and I marvel that the State Department and the Labor Department have been able to get along so well, each defining the work of the other.

But the next thing, in the very final stages, the preparation of what is now the 1924 act: A move was sprung suddenly that there should be a preference for agriculturists, and that move came from the Southern States, which thought they needed to inoculate their population with European farmers. People were leaving the soil of the United States and are yet.

Mr. Box. They are mostly from one State.

The CHAIRMAN. One State largely. So in the other body the pressure was so heavy that the provision that half of these quotas of the countries having more than 300 quota be reserved for farmers and their families was accepted. That has all been the cause of a great deal of trouble, because a man who might qualify, we will say, in Germany as a farmer would be considered in this country as perhaps, a butcher with a 3-acre garden. And then, again, many a man who has qualified before our consular agents over there as a farmer, finds when he gets here he can do better by driving an ice wagon or a truck or

taking care of a dairy, and he does not get to the actual farm that certain Senators thought he would reach.

Now, the problem that is really before us if we decide that it is desirable to recognize the admission of certain technicians within the quotas, is, how far can we go down into the standing lines of those most likely relatives not recognized as preference now but anxious to come to their people now, and how far can we go in cutting down the preference for farmer labor?

General Ansell, representing the Musicians' Union of the United States, came this morning and was very anxious to testify in the hope that he could show this committee the necessity of adding another paragraph or bringing out a separate bill to protect the musicians of the United States, citizens who are here and who are suffering dredfully from the fact that bands of musicians are admitted as excess because they are artists under the old law for temporary visitors coming under contract. Now, we will say a fine band of singers and dancers and all-around musicians-60 people-come, perform 20 engagements in the United States, and disband, perhaps bankrupt. The contract is over. So they are scattered in little organizations of five, six, or seven pieces, play at hotels, and take the bread out of the mouths of people in the United States and ordinary musicians. No other country has that happen. In England there are severe laws that require that those who go from the United States as members of bands, unless they are the highest artists, shall put up the equivalent of the wage taken from some citizen of the country. The laws of France are still more severe.

I have prepared and introduced a bill undertaking to define artists, musical artists; and I believe that the same definitions that are used in the tariff acts to define artistry in painting can be used for artistry in music. In other words, one musician may be a cornetist of rare skill and achievement and able to earn a great price for an appearance, and another man coming under the same exemption would be just a cornet player. Whether it is advisable to encumber the Free bill with that phase of it is a question. I would like to state the proposition. I can't let too many of these bills get up at once or we will get a tangled web here that we can't untangle.

If the committee is willing I think now we ought to put the further work with regard to this bill in the hands of a subcommittee. I suggest that if Mr. Free is satisfied with the hearing so far he organize a subcommittee.

Mr. Roberts, of the American Federation of Labor, is present, and we will be glad to hear him.

STATEMENT OF MR. W. C. ROBERTS, CHAIRMAN OF THE LEGISLATIVE COMMITTEE OF THE AMERICAN FEDERATION OF LABOR

The CHAIRMAN. Will you state your business address?

Mr. ROBERTS. American Federation of Labor Building, Ninth Street and Massachusetts Avenue.

The CHAIRMAN. And your position?

Mr. ROBERTS. Chairman of the legislative committee of the American Federation of Labor.

96161-30-NO. 3-4

I know of no question that we have worried over so much as the bills that have been put into Congress in the last few years in reference to bringing in technicians and others.

Now, as I read this bill, it refers to persons trained and skilled in a particular art, craft, technique, business, or science, or in agriculture; but at the same time it tends to bring in skilled workers, whom we do not need in this country, and the best evidence of it is the case that was repeated here to-day by Mr. Husband and Mr. Snyder, of bringing in 42 machinists to assemble knitting machines made in Germany, and then applying for more to be brought in. I discussed that matter with the president and secretary of the National Association of Machinists, and they have entered a vigorous protest against those men being brought in because there are men here that can do that work themselves. And I agree with the chairman that the word "agriculture" should be cut out of that. There are enough farmers in this country now, and the only "farmers" coming in are from Mexico.

Mr. Box. The Farm Board says our crops are too big and those crops ought to be limited rather than increased.

Mr. ROBERTS. Mr. Congressman, I had a talk with Senator Gooding one day, and he was opposed to any farmers coming into this country. He said, "We have got all the farmers we want. The farmers are crying for relief. There are too many of them now. They say,

"Why bring in any more?" That is a subterfuge.

Mr. JENKINS. May I ask you a question there?

You have been around legislative halls all your life. You appreciate that sometimes certain legislation is proposed and passedpublicity seekers, in other words because there has been precedent for it and because certain localities exist upon that?

Mr. ROBERTS. Yes.

Mr. JENKINS. I suppose you are familiar with the fact that the reason that has been carried, as far as our committee is concerned, for the past few years is because there is in some sections of the country a prejudice in favor of keeping that in?

Mr. ROBERTS. But, as the chairman says, the most of them who come here become butchers or teamsters or something else, or they run these little delicatessen stores or fruit stands and such things as that.

Now, we feel sympathetic with the legislation that is proposed if it applies to real technicians in the arts or crafts-men who know something—but not men brought here to work and take the places of our men.

Another thing I want to call your attention to: I see by this bill that these people are to come in here permanently, bring their families with them, and live here. It is the only country in the world that will allow that-the only industrial country.

I want to read you the law in England. (Reading:)

It is the practice of the department to issue permits for foreign technicians to assist employers in establishing new industries or new processes in existing industries. But in all cases the permit is limited as to time, and the condition is imposed that the foreigners' services shall in part be used to train British subjects.

The CHAIRMAN. What are you reading from?

Mr. ROBERTS. Procedure Regulating the Entry of Foreigners for Employment in Great Britain.

The CHAIRMAN. Published by the Government?

Mr. ROBERTS. Presented by the Minister of Labor to Parliament by command of His Majesty, printed and published by His Majesty's stationery office. The seal and everything is connected with it.

I would like to put the whole of it into the record. It is a very valuable document.

The CHAIRMAN. It is so ordered.

Mr. ROBERTS. The following is the procedure regulating the entry of foreigners for employment in Great Britain:

PROCEDURE REGULATING THE ENTRY OF FOREIGNERS FOR EMPLOYMENT IN GREAT BRITAIN

(Aliens order, 1920, article 1 (3) (b))

[Memorandum by the Minister of Labor presented to Parliament by command of His Majesty]

1. The object of this memorandum is to describe the procedure, under the control of the Minister of Labor, relating to the entry of foreigners into this country in order to take up employment. In general, the control of the administrative provisions relating to the entry of foreigners into this country, their supervision while here, and their departure from the country, is in the hands of the home secretary. Under article 1 (3) (b) of the aliens order, 1920, however, it is provided that an alien shall not be permitted to land unless

"If desirous of entering the service of an employer in the United Kingdom he produces a permit in writing for his engagement issued to the employer by the Minister of Labor."

2. This requirement of a permit in the case of foreigners desiring to enter the service of an employer is additional to any other conditions and requirements imposed under the law relating to foreigners generally. It may be noted that the minister's permission is not necessary to enable a foreigner to enter the country in order to take up business on his own account, or to become a partner in a business, or to accept the position of a director of a company registered under the companies acts.

3. The number of foreigners permanently resident and "gainfully occupied" in Great Britain is given in the census of 1921 as males 110,278, females 32,447, total 142,725, being approximately 0.7 per cent of the total population gainfully employed. Many of these people have been resident in the country for many years, and a number of them were born here. They are therefore to be regarded, in so far as they are employed persons, as part of the labor available in the country.

4. In view of the prevailing volume of unemployment and to safeguard the interests of British workers the admission of newcomers for employment is closely restricted. In general the employer applying for a permit is required (i) to give a guaranty that no labor will be displaced and (ii) to satisfy the following conditions:

(a) He must prove that every possible effort has been made without success to find suitable labor from among permanent residents in this country; and

(b) The wages to be paid to the foreigners must not be less than those usually received by British employees for similar work.

It is the practice of the department to consult representative organizations of employers and employed persons (including technical and scientific organizations) in all cases of doubt or difficulty.

5. Permits are not issued to enable any employer to obtain labor from abroad to meet a seasonal demand, e. g., to augment the supply of dressmakers and milliners during "the season or agricultural workers during a harvest period. They are issued with somewhat greater freedom in respect of female domestic servants, family governesses, and foreign-correspondence clerks, subject to the conditions referred to above being satisfied.

6. The application of the conditions specified in paragraph 4 sometimes presents special difficulties in the case of the entertainment industry. It is the practice to grant permits freely (except that the periods of the permits are limited) in respect of performers of international reputation. Permits are similarly granted, with a time limit, for performances presenting special features of novelty or attractiveness. Experience shows that the effect of an international exchange of entertainers is in the long run to improve the prospects of employment in this

industry. The special case of musicians playing dance music is dealt with further in paragraph 12.

7. Another special case is that of young foreigners, male or female, who desire to take up supernumerary posts in offices, banks, etc., for limited periods in order to acquire some knowledge of the English language and British business methods. The issue of permits in such cases is desirable if only to secure similar facilities for young British subjects who seek to obtain foreign experience by temporary residence and employment abroad. Moreover, the foreigners who have gained experience in this country are a valuable link later on in life for the furtherance of British export trade. Care is taken to see that these facilities are not misused by employers who are merely desirous of obtaining cheap clerical labor.

8. A permit, if issued, is generally for a limited period, from 1 week up to 12 months. All permits for actors, actresses, vaudeville artistes, and for young persons seeking experience are so limited. In certain circumstances other conditions are also imposed.

9. Prior to the war there were some occupations in which the majority of the persons engaged were foreigners, and the normal method of augmenting labor for such occupations was by recruitment abroad. Foreign recruitment is not now permitted as a normal feature of any occupation, the employers concerned being required to take such steps as may be necessary to train and to employ persons already in the country. The effect of this policy may be instanced in regard to the following:

(A) Mosiac and terrazzo workers.-Prior to the war the skilled workers and a substantial proportion of the laborers were foreigners, mainly Italians. With the postwar boom in "luxury" building many laborers were engaged for skilled work. Requests from employers to recruit further skilled men from abroad were resisted by the ministry, the trade being urged systematically to train British subjects for the work. In 1926 after considerable correspondence and negotiation the employers, the trade-unions, and the ministry agreed on a scheme for the apprenticeship under indenture of British boys in the craft. A limited number of permits are now granted for further skilled men from Italy, but they are issued only to firms who subscribe to the apprenticeship scheme and in proportion to the number of apprentices engaged.1

(B) Hairdressers. The alteration in fashion in the dressing of women's hair which took place during the war period created a demand for foreign hairdressers in the postwar period. Applications for permits for foreigners were in most cases refused. In 1925 a letter was addressed to the proprietor of a leading West End hairdressing establishment in the following terms:

"The minister recognizes that there is at the moment a shortage in this country of skilled assistants, but is not prepared to agree that such a situation can only be met by the importation of foreign labor. It would appear from inquiries which he has made as well as from the terms of your letter of December 11, in which you stated that the trade is steadily rising in importance, that the demand for skilled assistants for hairdressing is likely to be continuous and to increase. In these circumstances it devolves upon the trade itself to arrange for the training of persons already having some experience in the business and for the systematic training of youths and girls now leaving school."

This policy has caused the trade to set up several schools and training establishments. The number of applications now received for foreigners is negligible. C. Waiters. Before 1914, most of the leading hotels and restaurants, particularly in the West End of London, employed only foreign waiters and, as required, further waiters were brought into the country from abroad. Contrary to a very general impression a waiter who seeks to obtain a well-remunerated post in an important establishment must have had a long and comprehensive training, while foreign experience and a knowledge of one or more foreign languages is a great advantage; in some establishments it is essential. Since 1920 permits for waiters have been generally refused. In the results the leading employers are now training British youths. A regular system of exchange has been arranged by the ministry as between British trainees seeking experience in France and Switzerland, and French and Swiss youths desiring British experience. Permits are also issued to promote these exchanges in respect of other continental countries. The L. C. C. School for Waiters, Westminster, S. W., is also assisting the employers in training youths. The greatly increased number of young British "Com

1 An effort is now being made by the department to promote the improved training of British youths as tailors in the bespoke trade in view of the continuing demand for permits in respect of foreign tailors, mainly bespoke "coat hands."