and I will undertake to see what I can do to be helpful when I am over there.

Mr. KARAS. Thank you very much, and I would appreciate if you could mention to Mr. Mubarak to end the exile of the head of the church in Egypt, Pope Shenouda; His Holiness is still in exile for

no reason.

Mr. BONKER. Steve, I might mention that when President Mubarak was here and appeared before our committee, I asked him specifically about the Copts and the head of the church who was under house arrest. He gave me his assurances at that time that Pope Shenouda would be released. May I give you a letter to take with you and ask him why there has not been a response?

Mr. KARAS. I am grateful for that. Even the released bishopsthe eight of them-did not return to their diocese. Instead, he shifted them from the jail to the monastery.

Mr. SOLARZ. Can I tell President Mubarak that our committee has voted unanimously to offer an exchange of you for Pope Shenouda? [Laughter.]

Mr. ROSENBERG. Sir, I just wanted to thank you for the kind of attention you have given us. It was outstanding.

Mr. BONKER. We appreciate the work you are doing, Mr. Rosenberg. Thank you, Steve.

Mr. Karas, I apologize for taking so long to get to you, but you have the floor to yourself. You may proceed.

STATEMENT OF SHAWKY KARAS, PRESIDENT, AMERICAN COPTIC ASSOCIATION

Mr. KARAS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I would like to express my gratitude for your concern which was expressed to President Mubarak, and your continuous concern for the welfare of Egypt's Christian.

By the word Coptic, it came from the Greek, the term "egyptus" and when the Arabs came in 641, the word "egyptus" was corrupted to the word "coptic." So the word "coptic" means Egyptian. We are the descendants of the Pharoahs, so we are indigenous Christians before the Islamic conquest in 641.

Mr. BONKER. I think that is interesting to know. I am glad you identified the source of the word.

Mr. KARAS. In 1979 and 1980, the attacks on the Christians were so intensive-raping, kidnaping girls, burning churches. Thus Pope Shenouda and the synod of bishops canceled the celebration of Easter in March 1980. So it is like a protest against such atrocities without the protection of the Egyptian Government.

In June 1981 President Sadat wanted to give the Coptic patriarch and the bishops another lesson that they should not protest. So on June 17, 18, and 19, 1981, there was a dispute on a piece of land owned by a Christian who wanted to build something on it plus a church. The Moslem fundamentalists wanted to take it by force. The Christian owner resisted, so the Moslem fundamentalists on June 17, 18, and 19, 1981, surrounded this area and they took over. Within 2 hours the central police force came and surrounded the area; but the police for 3 days did not do anything.

The Moslem fundamentalists burned Christians alive, threw children from balconies. Between 20 and 100 were either burned or killed alive. A whole family was put between two mattresses and burned alive. It is not reported here.

On September 5, 1981, when President Sadat cracked down on the Moslem fundamentalists he exiled Pope Shenouda; and jailed 8 bishops, 22 priests, and 150 laymen without charges. The only accusation against them was that they protested.

Mr. BONKER. What do you mean they tried to protest?

Mr. KARAS. To protest the atrocities against their people. All they asked was the central Government to protect their people. Mr. BONKER. In what form? I am just curious-the form of the protest?

Mr. KARAS. The protest was that they canceled the celebration of Easter in 1980 as a protest against atrocities. Only that they just canceled the celebration of Easter in 1980.

Mr. BONKER. I mean in what form did they protest?

Mr. KARAS. Yes. They only canceled the celebration of Easter. That is all.

But it was recognized all over the world, in different newspapers all over the world. Now President Mubarak released the eight bishops, but then shipped them to the monasteries. Pope Shenouda is still in exile.

Also, since September 5, 1981, the two weekly Coptic magazines were closed down. Meanwhile the Moslems have their own magazines and are free to do what they want to do.

Now there is new attempts to apply Islamic rules on the Christians. In 1970 the Egyptian Government changed the second article of the constitution and made Islam the state religion and the Koran a major source of laws. In 1980, the Government made the Koran the only source of laws. I am not attacking the Koran or any religion. It is just according to Koran principle, no non-Moslem has authority over a Moslem. This means a Christian could not testify in a court against a Moslem because he has no authority.

Christians could not have a leadership position or could because they should not have authority over a Moslem.

The supreme court decided that the Christians are infidels and could not testify in the court, according to the fact file, page 12 to 13.

Mr. BONKER. That is the Egyptian supreme court?

Mr. KARAS. The Egyptian supreme court.

Mr. BONKER. In a ruling it said that Christians are infidels?

Mr. KARAS. Yes, and that they could not testify against the Moselms. I have the case.

Mr. BONKER. And cannot testify against a Moslem in the court? Mr. KARAS. Yes, in the court. This is Arabic. I will read it to you. It is two pages. The first page is the court decision page which is in the fact file. It says that the supreme court of Alexandria has decided that a Moslem who adopted Christianity is considered legally dead. This is on pages 14 and 15 in the fact file.

I produced two pages and here, Mr. Chairman, I have the case in my hand. The translation was written beside that. Now they are trying to apply Islamic rules.

On June 23-on June 28 the Mayo newspapers-official newspaper of the ruling party-indicated that the Speaker of the House, Dr. Sufi, announces this week that the complex task of applying the principle of Islamic law are complete, so they can be put in place of the present civil legal system.

Also, on July 4, 1982, the New York Times indicated that Islamic rules would be applied. We always write to the Congressmen and Senators and they say look-the constitution says that article No. 45 indicates that there are freedom of religion and equality. But I will tell you a case.

In a case before the supreme court on April 8, 1980, a Christian man adopted Islam and then he wanted to go back to Christianity. He wanted to change his identification card from Islam to Christianity. The supreme court refused to change that because in Islam there is no apostacy. The identification department told him that he could not change his religion. If you change your religion in Islam you shall be killed or executed within 30 days.

So the lawyer of the defendant mentioned that article 46 of the constitution indicates equality and freedom of religion. But the supreme court decided that article 46 should not supercede article 2. So everything, even equality, should be interpreted in the context of article 2. Thus, article 46 did not have any meaning.

The apostacy law that the Egyptian Government tried to implement in 1977 is on page 17 in the fact file. According to Al-Ahram newspaper, a bill was introduced to the Assembly in Egypt stating that anyone who changes Islam to Christianity should be executed within 30 days.

The bill, before it was approved, was referred to the supreme court. The supreme court stated the bill was constitutional according to Islamic rules. And here is the bill. Death penalty should be prescribed for any Moslem who converts to Christianity or any other religion. Evidence for persecution can be obtained by testimony of two Moslem adult men. A minor-10 to 14-who converts to Christianity or any other religion is to be whipped 50 times by a slender stick. Anyone who persuades a Moslem to convert to Christianity or any other religion will receive death.

This was Al-Ahram newspaper, the official newspaper. I am translating from it. This was shelved after worldwide protest. Now it is under consideration in the Assembly, which would then be approved next October.

In addition, in accordance with Koranic principle, non-Moslem should have no authority over a Moslem. Thus, no Christian is a college dean, a police commissioner, city manager, appointed Province government or associate, university president, nor can they have any other leadership position because it is written. I am quoting the Islamic principle here, I am quoting from the Koran.

Moslems are forbidden to take Jews or Christians as friends, nor are the Moslems allowed even to employ them.

I am not attacking Islam, I am saying that this is its principle, the Islamic principle when they are applied on us.

Mr. BONKER. You know, that is interesting. The human rights report prepared by the State Department says this-and this is their latest report which came at the end of January this year

While there are instances of individual discrimination against Copts on the part of the Moslem majority, there is no evidence of officially inspired or sanctioned acts of discrimination against the Copts or other religious minorities. The large Coptic minority continues to participate fully in the life of the country.

Mr. KARAS. Unfortunately, it is untrue. The State Department tries to minimize the plight of the Copts because of the special relationships with Egypt. The Egyptian Government assigned one or two ministers in the Cabinet without portfolio. For example, Dr. Butros Ghali is a minister of state, but Mr. Kamal Assan Ali is a minister of foreign affairs. Dr. Ghali does not have authority in the Ministry of Foreign Affairs except his own office. No one should report to him, because no authority of a non-Moslem should be over a Moslem. And his position is used to camouflage the Coptic problem.

I am not interested in individual discriminations because they happen everywhere. I am concerned with the practices of the Egyptian Government and the Supreme Court ruling. I have here the third case in the Supreme Court.

Mr. BONKER. When was all this documentation made-the supreme court ruling?

Mr. KARAS. The last ruling was April 8, 1980. The second article of the Constitution supercedes any other article of equality and justice. In this case the supreme court refused a Muslim, who was formerly a Christian, to readopt Christianity on the ground that Islam is the state religion and the Koran is the major source of law. According to Koranic principles, there is no apostacy in Islam. When the man's lawyer defended his right on the basis of the 46th article of the Egyptian Constitution, which guarantees freedom of religion and equality, the supreme court justice stated that the second article should supersede other articles. Then, the justice threatened to apply apostacy law against the client if he insisted to renounce Islam.

Mr. BONKER. And the newspaper clipping from which you read is dated when?

Mr. KARAS. Dated 1977 and so on up to where they tried to introduce it now.

Mr. BONKER. I wonder how the Human Rights Bureau in the State Department missed all this activity.

Mr. KARAS. We submitted to the State Department all the documents.

Mr. BONKER. You did?

Mr. KARAS. Yes, we did submit it to the State Department and they said no, these were individual cases, individual incidents. I told them I said here were the cases. Mr. Chairman, do you know if this apostacy law passed, 30,000 Christians would face death or forced conversion to Islam. During the last 30 years around 30,000 people converted from Islam to Christianity and then they converted back to Christianity.

They tried that for ease of divorce and then they went back to the church. The church accepted them, but then the state did not recognize their new status. So they are legally Moslems, but they are practicing Christianity.

Mr. BONKER. Now that document you read from provided for a sentence of death to anyone who is caught attempting to convert or converting a Moslem to a Christian

Mr. KARAS. Yes.

Mr. BONKER. You read from what?

Mr. KARAS. I am reading from Al-Ahram newspaper.

Mr. BONKER. That is a newspaper?

Mr. KARAS. That is the official newspaper.

Mr. BONKER. The newspaper was reporting on what act?

Mr. KARAS. This law was under consideration in 1977.

Mr. BONKER. This was a bill?

Mr. KARAS. This was a bill.

Mr. BONKER. Before the Assembly?

Mr. KARAS. Before the Assembly and the Cabinet sent it to the Supreme Court to find out whether it is constitutional or not. Mr. BONKER. Now hold on. Did the bill pass the Assembly? Mr. KARAS. No, it was shelved.

Mr. BONKER. It did not go anywhere?

Mr. KARAS. But it is now under consideration.

Mr. BONKER. Well, I think we have to be clear, though. I mean, there are 18,000 bills that are introduced in this Congress, a few of which pass. And believe me, some of those bills are outrageous. I do not think they go that far-to provide a sentence of 50 lashes or whatever-but some of them are as ridiculous. But that is not the basis for law. It is just simply one person introducing a bill,

measure.

That is why I find it odd that a supreme court would be asked to make a ruling on a bill before it has become law.

Mr. KARAS. This is the way it is in Egypt. I am saying the supreme court-the same supreme court that decided we are infidel and could not testify in the court.

Mr. BONKER. Anyway, that document you are reading from is a newspaper reporting on a bill that was before the Assembly and that is now under consideration.

Mr. KARAS. Now under consideration, according to it as they are trying to apply Islamic rules. It is one of the bills that Dr. Sufi-AboTalib, the Speaker, is trying to pass through the Assembly.

Mr. BONKER. So if any Christian were to approach a Moslem and tell him about Christ, he would possibly be▬▬

Mr. KARAS. Sure. And also, they took our church-trusted land. For example, a Christian man donated a piece of land and said the income of this land should be for the church or the school attached to it and any extra income should be spent on Moslems or Christians.

The Minister of Islamic Affairs mentioned that there is no authority of a non-Moslem over a Moslem. Then they took the land. This according to the fact file, page 5. There is a letter from the Ministry of Islamic Affairs to the trustee of the piece of land. This land was donated in 1894. The benefactor mentioned that this land should be used for the church and the extra income should be spent on the poor, whether they are Christians or Moslems.

This letter was dated in 1972 stating that the Ministry of Islamic Affairs is taking the land and here is the letter from that Ministry. Beside it is its translation.