The right to dissent is one of the oldest and most cherished rights which all Americans possess. If it sometimes is used in a childish manner, it is one of the prices we pay for being a free democracy. But the desecration of the American flag transcends the question of individual rights; the American flag any American flag is the property of all Americans. While an individual may have a right to dissent, he also has the responsibility not to infringe on the rights of others in doing so. By burning the American flag an individual is destroying property that belongs to millions of other Americans and thus is violating the rights of those millions. And there is definitely something badly wrong if the American people and their representatives in Congress stand idly by while all this is going on. As are most Americans, I am sick and tired of watching a few lunatic-fringe demonstrators abuse and defile the constitutional rights of all Americans to speak freely, to assemble peaceably, and to petition for a redress of grievances. The irony of it is that they seek to malign the very system that protects them and offers them the right to demonstrate. Gentlemen, we hear many jokes about self-proclaimed patriots who are quick to wrap themselves in the flag. The thrust of the joke is that patriotism is a safe cloak to wear and it is one that offers excellent camouflage for other activities. But I think most Americans take pride in wrapping themselves in the flag, so to speak. And we do it not for any self-serving purpose, but because we honestly love and respect this flag which is the very symbol of everything we hold near and dear. I count myself among those who are still not embarrassed by patriotism, who are still not ashamed to salute the flag and pledge allegiance to the United States. I also count myself among those who still think there is something sacred about the Stars and Stripes. Simply put, I don't think irresponsible demonstrators should have the right to defile the flag. If they do it, I think they should be punished. Mr. Chairman, that would complete my remarks. I do ask consent of your committee to submit a letter dated May 5, from the Honorable Frank I. Hamilton, department commander of the American Legion in Indiana, and Denzil E. Reed, commander, Department of Indiana, Disabled American Veterans. Mr. ROGERS. That will be included in the record, and I understand Mr. Scerra has a very short statement. Let him make his statement, and then we will ask questions. Mr. ROUDEBUSH. Yes, Mr. Joe Scerra. (The documents referred to follow :) THE AMERICAN LEGION, DEPARTMENT OF INDIANA, Indianapolis, Ind., May 5, 1967. Hon. RICHARD L. ROUDEBUSH, U.S. Representative, House of Representatives Office Building, DEAR CONGRESSMAN ROUDEBUSH: The American Legion, Department of Indiana, with 106,000 members, desires that you convey to the House Judiciary SubCommittee our feelings for the flag of our country. We need not remind the Committee that "The American's Creed", which was adopted by the House of Representatives on April 3, 1918, states in part: "I, therefore, believe it is my duty to my country to love it, to support its constitution, to obey its laws, to respect its flag, and to defend it against all enemies". We are also ever mindful of Woodrow Wilson's statement that "The things theflag stands for were created by the experience of a great people. Everything it stands for was written by their lives. The flag is the embodiment, not of sentiment, but of history. It expresses the experiences made by men and women, the experiences of those who die and live under that flag". These above quoted phrases are a complete statement of our feelings. In Indiana we wish to rise to the man and call upon our Congress to writeinto law, in certain terms which convey to each and every citizen, as well as those people who look to our flag for protection, that there shall never be a dese-crating incident that will not produce severe punishment. Sincerely yours, FRANK I. HAMILTON, Department Commander. DISABLED AMERICAN VETERANS, DEPARTMENT OF INDIANA, Congressman RICHARD L. ROUDEBUSH, Washington, D.C. DEAR ROUDE: I received a copy of Communist Origin and Manipulation of Vietnam Week. Publications such as these are most informative to persons holding offices in veterans' organizations. This publication has certainly given me the insight to state facts about how our government is exposing communism, and the names of those persons taking part in these subversive activities. I have also received a copy of your letter from Pat Patterson, Department Adjutant, regarding the invitation for us to appear at your hearings on the flag desecration bill. I wish it were possible to be in attendance at this hearing however, my schedule will not permit it at this time. Should there be other hearings in the near future I would be happy to make this trip in behalf of your endeavor. I know all America awaits the results of your hearings about flag desecration. I would like to take this opportunity to congratulate you and your approach to keep the true American people informed of Americanism. I personally feel that Indiana is most fortunate to have Representatives dedicated toward trueAmerican Policies like yourself and colleagues, Ross Adair and the new comer to your group, Roger Zion. I know the three of you truly have the veteran at heart.. Sincerely, DENZIL REED, Commander. Mr. SCERRA. Mr. Chairman and members of the subcommittee, thank you for this opportunity to lend the support of the Veterans of Foreign Wars to Congressman Richard L. Roudebush's bill (H.R. 1207) and similar bills which propose to make it a crime to desecrate our flag. My name is Joseph A. Scerra and I am the senior vice commander-in-chief of the Veterans of Foreign Wars of the United States, whose membership presently is 1,350,000. Our organization has long been intensely concerned over the public defilement and desecration of our national flag. During the past several years the Veterans of Foreign Wars has been the leader in bringing this development to the attention of the Congress. The delegates to our several most recent national conventions have been up in arms over these incidents where our flag has been publicly mutilated or trampled upon. Unfortunately, these incidents which have been accelerating of late have received nationwide and international publicity. Our membership just cannot comprehend why anyone would even think of desecrating the symbol of our freedom and proud heritage. We think there is something sacred about the Stars and Stripes. Present law prescribes Federal standards for the display of our flag. In addition, by statute Congress has specified that "no disrespect should be shown to the flag of the United States of America." In its exercise of congressional authority over the affairs of the District of Columbia the Congress has specified penalties for acts of disrespect toward our flag. Despite this body of law concerning disrespect for the flag, it is the position of the Veterans of Foreign Wars that the Congress must make the desecration of the flag a crime. Present law concerning disrespect for the flag is inadequate to meet the times. The Veterans of Foreign Wars addressed itself to this problem when it met at its 67th national convention in New York City last August. The delegates adopted a strongly worded resolution which resolves that "we strongly support legislation providing punishment of 1 year in prison and $1,000 fine for any person who publicly and willfully destroys, mutilates, or desecrates the American flag." It is incredible to the Veterans of Foreign Wars that legislation of this kind should be necessary. Back in 1944 when World War II was at its height, President Franklin D. Roosevelt perhaps best summed up the meaning of our flag when he stated in a proclamation of February 24, that "the flag of the United States of America is universally representative of the principles of the justice, liberty, and democracy enjoyed by the people of the United States." Just a relatively few years later it is becoming almost commonplace throughout this great Nation to read that certain fringe elements of our have in some way or other publicly desecrated our flag. The VFW is aware that no criminal law is a complete deterrent; however, it is believed that because this is our national flag then a national law should be enacted by the Congress so that there will be uniformity both in the administration of the law and the attachment of penalties for conviction of crimes under that act. Because these delinquents who defile our flag seem to be bent on degrading themselves more and more, it would appear that there is no hope for some of them. In fact, no law will probably prevent some of them from committing further debaucheries. It is most regrettable that defilement of our flag has been interpreted by other nations and particularly by North Vietnam as a substantial resentment by the American people to the Vietnam war effort in that country. There is a law, passed by the Congress, providing penalties for debasement of our flag in the District of Columbia. The flag of the United States is a Federal banner and a Federal concern. Let us guard that concern. We believe that the Congress should act expeditiously to establish as provided penalties, in the legislature, pending before this committee in order that debasement of the flag of the United States in the areas of contempt and sedition can no longer be accomplished with impunity. Mr. Chairman, it has been my privilege and high honor to have visited Vietnam several times during these past couple of years. The VFW is proud of its support of the President and Congress in our effort to bring the Vietnamese war to a successful and honorable conclusion. During these crucial times, when our soldiers are engaged in this war half way around the world, certainly we at home should not hestitate to make certain that our flag receives proper respect and protection. The Veterans of Foreign Wars lends its full support to Congressman Roudebush's bill and similar bills and hopes that you will recommend this legislation to the full committee and that it will be reported to the House and sent to the Senate as soon as possible. Thank you. Mr. ROGERS. Thank you, Mr. Scerra. Mr. Roudebush, as I understand it your bill provides a penalty of a year "and" a thousand dollars fine. It doesn't give the judge much leeway. You would have no objection to amending that provision, would you? Mr. ROUDEBUSH. I would have no objection, Mr. Chairman, and I am also familiar as to the discussion of the verbiage of my legislation, as brought out by previous witnesses, about the appropriate section of the Federal Code that it amends. I do have some clarifying language I would like to leave with the record. Mr. ROGERS. We would be pleased to receive it. (The document referred to follows:) A BILL To prohibit desecration of the flag Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, That section 3 of title 4, United States Code, is amended (1) by redesignating the first sentence as subsection (a); (2) by striking out "or who, within the District of Columbia, shall publicly mutilate, deface, defile, or defy, trample upon, or cast contempt either by word or act, upon any such flag, standard, colors, or ensign," in subsection (a) (as so redesignated by paragraph (1)); (3) by redesignating the second sentence as subsection (c); (4) by striking out "herein" in subsection (c) (as so redesignated by paragraph (3)) and inserting in lieu thereof "in this section"; and (5) by inserting after subsection (a) the following new subsection: "(b) Whoever publicly mutilates, defaces, defiles, defies, tramples upon, or casts contempt, either by word or act, upon, any flag, standard, colors, or ensign of the United States shall be punished by imprisonment of not more than one year and a fine of not more than $1,000." Mr. ROGERS. I assume if this committee in its wisdom decided to make flag desecration a felony punishable by up to 5 years imprisonment and up to a $10,000 fine, you would have no objection to that? Mr. ROUDEBUSH. I might say, Mr. Chairman, I would be completely delighted. Mr. ROGERS. Are there any questions? Mr. WHITENER. No questions. Mr. JACOBS. I would like to welcome my fellow Hoosier and my colleague to the hearing, and state, by the way of preface, that I think we all know what Congressman Roudebush and those who have introduced this legislation are getting at has been the object of humor at times in this country, to talk about motherhood and the flag, but I think about them the same way that you are interested in, and I think what all of us are interested in-protecting the dignity of the United States, just as we protect the dignity of our own mothers, and I would go further and point out that while we disagree with something our mothers might do, we never cease a moment to love our mothers. And we hope that Americans never cease to love their country, and the cause for introducing this legislation is expressed in the poet's inquiry, "Breathes there the man with soul so dead, who never to himself hath said, This is my own, my native land!" But just as the case of the presidential assassination, on which we acted in the last Congress, I assume by the introduction of this bill you do not feel this is a widespread thing, but an act in very isolated instances for which redress on the part of the Federal Government should obtain. Is that correct? Mr. ROUDEBUSH. I will respond to the gentleman, sir. That is correct, and I will also comment that I am aware of his own distinguished military career in Korea as a member of the U.S. Marine Corps. Mr. JACOBS. I think since this is the purpose of the legislation, it might be helpful to achieve some clarification. For example, in your opinion, sir, would it desecrate the flag under the provisions of your bill or under the provisions as you have suggested your bill be amended, to carry the flag of the United States in a parade put on by some organization such as the Ku Klux Klan? Mr. ROUDEBUSH. That is a difficult question. I think the intent of the person bearing the banner would be the whole thing. In this act, if I may respond to my colleague, I would say the carrying of the flag in a respectful manner in a parade would not be a desecration of the flag, unless the purpose would be contemptuous. Mr. JACOBS. I would go a little further and ask if your response would be the same if it were a parade by Nazis and Communists? Mr. ROUDEBUSH. It is a difficult question to answer, and a difficult question to legislate. May I say again that I think the purposes and intent and the reason behind bearing the banner are the things we are concerned with here. If it is a contemptuous act, then I think we should try to legislate to prevent that. Mr. JACOBS. One final question along that line. It has been alleged that on occasions certain State governments in displaying both the flag of the United States and the flag of their respective States have subordinated the flag of the United States to the flag of their respective States. I would ask my colleague whether he would consider that to violate the provision of his bill, which refers to defying the flag of the United States. Mr. ROUDEBUSH. In my opinion, it would, if I may answer my colleague, the gentleman from Indiana. I would say this: I believe that present codes already cover this item, and why it is not enforced, I do not know, but I believe that many of these cases are covered by present law, but it is my intent also to cover that by submission of the legislation which I offered. Mr. JACOBS. If I may further state to my colleague, it is my understanding that the present law has no criminal provisions. |