SEA GRANT COLLEGES THURSDAY, MAY 5, 1966 U.S. SENATE, SPECIAL SUBCOMMITTEE ON SEA GRANT COLLEGES Washington, D.C. The special subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, in room 4232, New Senate Office Building, at 10 a.m., Senator Claiborne Pell presiding. Present: Senator Pell. Also present: Fitzhugh Green, special assistant to Senator Pell; Stewart E. McClure, chief clerk; Roy H. Millenson, minority clerk. Senator PELL. The fourth and final day of hearings on the sea grant college bill, the special subcommittee set up by Senator Hill, will resume today. Our first witness is Dr. James Wakelin, Jr., president of the Scientific Engineering Institute of Waltham, Mass., and a gentleman with a great deal of experience in this field in and out of government. Dr. Wakelin. STATEMENT OF DR. JAMES H. WAKELIN, JR., PRESIDENT, SCIENTIFIC ENGINEERING INSTITUTE OF WALTHAM, MASS. Senator PELL. I see you have a nice short statement here which is always indeed a delight, and then we will exchange some ideas back and forth. Do you want to read your statement? Mr. WAKELIN. Yes, sir. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. My name is James H. Wakelin, Jr. I am president of the Scientific Engineering Institute of Waltham, Mass. If I may, I would like to read just this one page, Mr. Chairman and expose myself to your questions or discussion. Since the idea of a sea grant college was advanced by Dean Athelstan Spilhaus 2 years ago, there has been a ground swell of interest to find the proper method to implement this most important concept. S. 2439 clearly states the problem we face in our national oceanographic effort with regard to the training and education of scientists, engineers, and technicians in order that we can man our expanding program in the oceans and Great Lakes. The need for training in this field of many disciplines is critical to our ability to learn more about the oceans, to explore the Continental Shelf and the deep ocean and to make more economical use of the abundant resources of the world ocean. It is significant that S. 2439 provides as well for support of research in the marine sciences and scientific endeavors in technology, engineering, and resource conservation and recovery. 233 We have long needed a legislative foundation to focus our attention on and to give support for a program of education in the marine sciences and technology for these academic institutions who are prepared to assume this vital task. Such a program is as important to our national defense as it is to our requirements for the material use of the ocean resources for our own economy. I am wholeheartedly in favor of the stated purposes of Senator Pell's bill entitled "National Sea Grant Colleges and Program Act of 1965." I support the proposed program for education, training, and research in the marine sciences, the advisory services described in the bill, and the method of funding through the National Science Foundation. Thank you, sir. Senator PELL. Thank you very much, Dr. Wakelin. I appreciate very much your statement of support, particularly from a man with as much experience and as knowledgeable as you are in this field. There are a couple of questions I was interested in your views on. One is the agency that you think might best administer this program. The ideas advanced include the National Science Foundation, the Smithsonian Institution, the Department of the Interior, and I was wondering if you had any views on this. Mr. WAKELIN. I think, Mr. Chairman, this comes closer to the stated purposes of the Foundation than to any other departmental or agency of the Government right now. Senator PELL. Do you think it might get lost there with the emphasis on pure science, research, and once in the maw of the National Science Foundation, it might lose its personality, or do you feel we could preserve the personality of this program? Mr. WAKELIN. I think this depends upon the leadership in the Foundation for this particular program. I think there is a danger that it might get lost in such a large effort as that of the Foundation. Senator PELL. Excuse me. Can you hear in the back of the room? Thank you. Mr. WAKELIN. We have had some training programs also through the Department of Health, Education, and Welfare under which this might possibly come. In my own feeling, I think that if we recast some of the purposes of the Foundation toward the support of training and scientific endeavors in the ocean science area, this program would go very well in the Foundation. I can think of a few governmental agencies at present that would be proper homes for this kind of support, Mr. Chairman. Certainly the Smithsonian is one. Health, Education, and Welfare is another. The Foundation is another. And also various Departments such as Commerce and Interior. I think the Foundation right now is the best avenue that I can think of. Senator PELL. As with all programs and all things in life, I gather what you are saying is that it can be no better than the man chosen to run it? Mr. WAKELIN. That is correct, sir. Senator PELL. And I wonder if one way, though, of keeping its personality might be to create a little public board to report to the Congress every year or every 2 years. Mr. WAKELIN. Specific to this program. Senator PELL. Specifically with regard to this program. Mr. WAKELIN. Yes. I think this would be a very fine idea and through this mechanism one would have better guidance and a better feeling of responsibility for this particular area in the Foundation. Senator PELL. This idea emerged in a luncheon some of us had with witnesses yesterday and this thought came up. Another question is with regard to the cost of the program. Do you have any idea as to what would seem the appropriate amount for a seed program of this type to get it started for the first and second year? Mr. WAKELIN. I have looked over the material you sent me, Mr. Chairman and there are various opinions expressed in these documents, particularly in the symposium that was held in the University of Rhode Island on the sea grant college concept. I would say myself that if one were to use the moneys that are accumulated from the lease of offshore lands of the order of a percentage of $175 million or $200 million, that certainly a sum of the order of $15 million to $20 million, or 10 percent of that figure would be an excellent start for the program. I would like to have a feeling, probably better than the one I have now, with respect to how many candidate universities throughout the land would be in line for such support. If there were of the order of one per State, it would be a program of the order of $300,000 per university or per academic institution. Senator PELL. This brings up another thought that also emerged from some discussions yesterday and that is to work out the balance between a little encouragement to each State and real support at centers of excellence. We adopted this approach in the Arts and Humanities legislation which was also reported out of this committee, and for which I also had the honor of being the chairman of the subcommittee. Our arrangement was that a portion of the funds would be allocated on an equal basis to all 50 States and the other portion would be allocated on the selective basis, on a merit grant basis. And that would mean maybe $5 million available for distribution among all of the individual States to get a little program going, and then the other $10 million to be allocated to a small number of the universities who are doing more in the field. Does that make sense to you? Mr. WAKELIN. Yes. I think also there was another idea that we have been discussing just now and that is the question of interest in the program shown by academic and research institutions by way of what they would offer as an inducement for further funding, such as the matching principle. Senator PELL. Yes. Mr. WAKELIN. I would hope, in answer to your first question, that broader support throughout the academic institutions by the Federal Government could be offered on an equal State basis as an incentive to building up departments of excellence in this field, but that also those institutions that are already in being, and that have a research and a technological base already working, would also have a chance to expand their efforts beyond that on a pro rata basis to each State. But I would also think that in return to engender State interest and become, perhaps, more of a partner in the oceanographic program, in 62-996-66- -16 the United States, in the States, that it might be well to consider also the question of matching funds on some kind of a percentage basis of national funding, Federal funding. Senator PELL. This is what we are turning over in our minds. Do you think this matching provision should be in the little bits of seed money that would go to each State, or on a merit grant basis to a few institutions, or to both? What would be your view from your experience? Mr. WAKELIN. I am wondering about-in answer to your questionif I can think a bit out loud, Mr. Chairman, I am wondering about those institutions who have at present no capability in this field and perhaps don't have an interest in it right now. What would they do with the money that would be given to them on a pro rata basis? Senator PELL. They would not receive this money unless they had asked for it, met certain requirements, and showed an intent to develop an interest and a curriculum in oceanology, particularly in the practical aspects of it or marine engineering. Mr. WAKELIN. I would think the question of matching funds, then, with regard to the two kinds of funding you proposed, would be better on a pro rata basis because I think that you want to engender interest in the universities and build up departments in the universities that are not now strong in this area. And I think on a matching fund basis this is an inducement to them to get into the field. Now, if you consider matching funds in the special categories of already existing institutions, you are going to those institutions with particular jobs in mind which I think has less of a meaning in the maching principle than it does on a pro rata basis. For example, if I were going to one institution that we could name in the New England area, I would go there for a particular purpose and I wouldn't want them to feel that I was going there with the idea that they had to match on a pro rata basis what I had given them for specific research or a specific training job. Senator PELL. So, in your view, the emphasis of the matching provision should be on the money that is evenly divided amongst the States? Mr. WAKELIN. I think so. Senator PELL. Would you also want a matching provision in the centers of excellence approach or not? Mr. WAKELIN. I wouldn't want this as a restriction for the kind of work I believe you would want to put at those institutions of current excellence. Senator PELL. Right. One final question, and this, again, concerns the practical aspects of the bill. The thought developed that we might call for the development of the equivalent of the county agricultural agents and call them Marine Extension Agents, and that colleges particpating in this program take on a responsibility to have two or three practical hornyhanded fellows who would be able to help in the same way that an agricultural agent, a county agent, would. Does this make sense to you? Mr. WAKELIN. Yes; it does. |