ested in a life of fishing, would like to be fishermen, would hold up their hand so we could get an idea.

(Whereupon, Senator Pell counted any hands raised as requested.) Senator PELL. I think that the record should show that out of, maybe 200 young people here from our maritime State, only 3 are interested in going to sea to make a living. That is a rather sad reflection which I hope will be remedied with the passage of this bill or other measures of this sort.

We had a private conversation one time, which I think should be put on the record, as to the problems you face in getting a young man to go to sea with you. As I understand it you do not want to take a young person with you unless there is some indication that he will stick with you for quite a while, is that correct?

Mr. DYKSTRA. That is correct, sir, and it's not only that there has to be some indication that he is going to stick with us, but it is also very difficult to take a young man who has had absolutely no training at sea and take him as part of the crew. Not only has he no training at sea but he has no training in the skills which are necessary aboard a fishing boat at sea. We have young men that go up and down the docks asking fishing captains to take them fishing with them, and at the same time we have a number of vacancies on fishing vessels. Sometime I will try to bring these two together and the vessel captain will say to me, "What sort of experience has he had?" And, "Where has he fished before?" I say, "He is just willing. He has no experience." The captain says, "I have to have someone with experience. If something goes wrong with my net I need someone with experience who can help the rest of the crew." They are just very reluctant to take a young man who has had no experience. The result is that you generally have to have some sort of a connection, such as a relative or friend on a boat who will take this young lad aboard and kind of take him under his wing for a while and teach him, have him there during this training period.

Senator PELL. So, it would be almost impossible for a young man from Woonsocket to go out there with no connection and get a start with a fisherman?

Mr. DYKSTRA. It would be very difficult. I'd say that if he did get aboard a fishing vessel, he would get aboard one of the less productive vessels because that vessel would not be making much money and he would have to take a man of this sort just to get a crew, so that when he gets aboard a vessel he'd learn all the wrong things when he started

out.

Senator PELL. Am I correct in stating that you have your fish-meal factory working all the time and you are perfectly willing to take in young people to work for you there, but that you have a hard time getting people?

Mr. DYKSTRA. That is correct.

Senator PELL. So that when they say it is difficult to get employment of any sort, that is not correct, particularly on the night shift there you have openings?

Mr. DYKSTRA. We already have some college people there, in fact, we hope they stay.

Senator PELL. But you could use more?

Mr. DYKSTRA. Yes.

Senator PELL. How many fisherman are there in Rhode Island?

Mr. DYKSTRA. Well, our port at Point Judith has the bulk of the fishermen in Rhode Island. Newport has some. We have fishing out of our port probably 125 to 150 fishermen. I would say that in Newport there would probably be based right there, maybe 25 or 30, and some of the out-of-State boats are laying there, but they are not Rhode Island fishermen. Now, this is trawl fishermen and trawlers. If you asked me, like how many fishermen there are including the trappers, we call them shell fishermen, pot-lobster fishermen, ones who are part time in and out, and so on, why there would probably be more fishermen to be counted, but as far as trawl fishermen go that's about it.

Senator PELL. Would you say there are more than 1,000 people that are fishermen of one sort or another in the State, lobster, shellfish, trawlers, and so on?

Mr. DYKSTRA. If you were to include shell fishermen, yes, there would be.

Senator PELL. And in connection with insurance rates, since your profession is a relatively hazardous one, do you have any problem in getting insurance for your men and the boats? How do you arrange rates?

Mr. DYKSTRA. This is a very great problem in many places. We are very fortunate in our cooperative. We have a complete program based on our experience, and so far we have been successful in keeping the rates well below, for instance, New Bedford. But many ports and vessel operators find this one of the most difficult things that they have to contend with. I am not saying that we couldn't have a great deal of difficulty overnight, and be in the same boat that they are in. We just happen to have a rather unique situation in that regard. Fishing vessel operators throughout the country have that insurance problem.

Senator PELL. Isn't lobster pot fishing even more hazardous than your trawl fishing?

Mr. DYKSTRA. I would say perhaps, yes, but this is a different type of operation. You haven't got the same situation. Most of these are a one-man, or sometime, a two-man operation. Most of the time they fish alone. We wouldn't think of going out to sea without complete insurance coverage.

Senator PELL. Returning to the general purpose of the bill, that is the exploitation of the knowledge we already have. How many fish that you catch would you call "trash fish," that get thrown back into the sea?

Mr. DYKSTRA. Well, of course we do have a plant which utilizes these "trash fish" now.

Senator PELL. So, you would throw nothing back into the sea as of now?

Mr. DYKSTRA. Well, that would be or might be a very bad impression because we are asking other people if they are throwing anything back into the sea. We try to use commonsense as far as conservation goes. In other words we don't just go out and try to catch everything that we possibly can and bring it in. But we do use all species of fish excepting for one or two species.

Senator PELL. Thank you very much, Mr. Dykstra, for giving us this valuable time and your special specific knowledge. Indeed, we are very grateful to you.

Our next witness is Dr. William H. Drew, associate dean of the University of New Hampshire Graduate School. We have tried to give as broad a degree of coverage as possible to this hearing. We have representatives from Massachusetts, from Connecticut, and we have television from Maine. All the States in New England will be represented one way or the other.

STATEMENT OF DR. WILLIAM H. DREW, ASSOCIATE DEAN OF THE GRADUATE SCHOOL, UNIVERSITY OF NEW HAMPSHIRE

Dr. DREW. Senator Pell, I bring you greeting from our 17 miles of shore front in New Hampshire.

Seriously speaking now as recording the testimony already given I want to add that as recorded in the proceedings of the "Conference on the Concept of a Sea Grant University," held at Newport, here in Rhode Island, last fall, we at the University of New Hampshire strongly favor the sea grant college idea as outlined in Senate bill 2439. There is a vast variety and amount of resources in the sea that are available on a first-come, first-served basis. These sources can change the fate of New Hampshire, the United States, and of civilization itself. For our country not to be in the forefront in developing practical means of exploiting these resources is unthinkable. The mere fact that we, at the moment, are not facing starvation without food resources from the sea, is not an adequate reason to allow a lag in developing marine technology. Increasing the marine expertise of the United States will undoubtedly be important to the betterment of mankind and to the economic and technical security of the Nation. There is little doubt that the next generation will see vast improvements in man's ability to survive in and to control the forces at work on the surface and within the depths of the seas. Dean Spilhaus and others have specified the potentials of this new era far better than I could hope to do.

As a product of the land grant college and one who has been closely associated with several colleges of agriculture, I can, however, state my conviction that the land-grant concept is an excellent type of framework within which our scientific manpower can be placed in order to provide the research, the technical application, and the educational and service needs of the country in the marine areas.

The undeniable fact that we lead the world in the human efficiency of our food production units is one kind of evidence that the land grant college system has worked well for American agriculture. The United States is currently producing an abundance of food and fiber with considerably less than 10 percent of our total working force, while the Soviet Union requires over 40 percent of its labor force to produce somewhat limited supplies of food for its population. Although part of this striking difference can be attributed to the political and economic organization of the Russian farm units, it is the efficiency and the technical means available to the American farmer that loom most important. When Mr. Khrushchev came to the United States, it was our farms and farming methods that most excited his interest. One of our biggest current contributions to the underdeveloped nations of the world is that of providing them with technical know-how in agriculture. On the other side of the coin, it is quite evident that the Soviet Union does not covet the American fishery, nor are foreign countries

looking to us for leadership in the marine sciences. This state of affairs should not be allowed to continue.

Because the land grant college system worked so well in the past century in the areas of agriculture and the mechanical arts, I believe that with some modifications it provides the same opportunity today for development in marine areas. It does not seem necessary to duplicate the land-grant college as it existed when first established. This would involve building new campuses, colleges, and experiment stations in many areas of the country. At the time of the emergence of the land-grant college there was not in existence a large number of organizations that would serve as a firm base for the building of new programs. Today this alternative does exist in the form of many institutions which are currently engaged in research and teaching in the marine area. These facilities should be used to their fullest extent. I would like now to refer to the University of New Hampshire as only one of numerous institutions which already have some of the basic ingredients for a coordinated program in the marine sciences. My purpose is to show that it would be unwise to duplicate these ingredients. Although we would be very interested in cooperating in the sea grant idea, I am not trying to make a particular case for the University of New Hampshire. My reasons for favoring the proposed legislation are much broader than any particular benefit that might accrue to our institution. I use the University of New Hampshire only as the example with which I am most familiar.

As many of you know, the university is located adjacent to one of the largest estuaries on the Atlantic coast, which contains or consists of Great and Little Bays, into which flow seven major rivers. The tidewater area covers about 16,000 acres, containing many productive clam and oyster beds and an abundance of lobsters and salt-water fish. Great Bay provides not only an ideal laboratory for marine biologists, but a ready access to the open sea for scientists interested in the many areas of oceanography.

As early as the 1920's the University of New Hampshire maintained a marine biological station on the Isles of Shoals, located off the coast of New Hampshire. This station, which was discontinued during World War II, will be replaced with a modern laboratory on the shore of Great Bay. This facility will make it possible for us to expand our research program on estuarine studies and provide laboratory facilities for an increased number of students. The mere announcement of the funding of this laboratory has produced a noticeable increase in inquiries from potential graduate students who are interested in working in the area of marine biology. A further indication of increasing interest in the marine science areas is the fact that Cornell University has recently made arrangements to use the facilities as the Isles of Shoals during the summer months. We are currently developing with them a cooperative arrangement in this area.

In the engineering area we have the recently established engineering design and analysis laboratory within our college of technology. This laboratory is a formal partnership of 20 faculty members who have banded together for the purpose of providing themselves and their students with experience in working on actual engineering projects, most of them associated with the exploration and exploitation of the ocean. Our first concern, of course, is that of educating superior

engineers. We believe that this focus on the challenging problems of oceanography provides the necessary ingredients for engineering education and practical research program. Currently this laboratory is working under contract with Government agencies and industry on such problems as precise navigation, the improvement of man's ability to survive in the depths of the sea, the use of satellites to gather oceanographic data, and the tracing of temperature contours in the deep ocean. The students response to this program has been excellent. However, sustaining the program through specific research grants will be a problem. Support on a broader base would be very desirable. Our resources development center, composed primarily of a group of social scientists, is working on various phases of the development of human and natural resources of the State. Their studies are concerned with developing recreation and commercial fishery enterprises, as well as ocean-oriented industries.

In the process of approaching the problems of the marine sciences through formalized research and education groups, we find that effective programs require the coordination of the total resources of the university. The inter-disciplinary centers and institutes must coordinate, but their effectiveness rests upon the proper use of the total offerings of the university. Therefore, we do not feel that it would be wise to establish new colleges or universities to meet a specific need. It is suggested that a more desirable approach would be to change the orientation of some existing personnel and facilities. While it is necessary for the ocean-oriented physicist to know considerable about the environment of the sea and its special problems, he should be first and foremost a physicist. A few specialized centers may be a reasonable means of approaching some of the basic research needs. If, however, we are also to consider the application of research to specific problems and the extension of the results to industry itself, it is doubtful that such centers would meet the need. To have an effective extension and applied research program, it must be administered close to home.

Programs of the type mentioned above receive great benefit from the proposed legislation, which would also be beneficial to the State of New Hampshire. Our limited amount of sea coast, which provides excellent access to the ocean, accounts for a commercial fishery whose total annual product landed in New Hampshire is valued at above a million dollars, although many of the fish and lobsters caught off our coast are landed in ports in Maine and Massachusetts. We feel that the value of this fishery could be increased considerably with new practical research results. As evidence of this belief, the State of New Hampshire has recently instituted a division of marine fisheries, which is currently conducting an embryonic research program. Since New Hampshire is strongly dependent upon recreation as a source of income to the State, we are extremely interested in preserving and improving our seashore areas. Much of the industry located in our sea coast area is concerned directly or indirectly with the marine sciences.

If it does not seem feasible to build new sea grant colleges in the manner that land-grant colleges were built in the last decade, one might wonder if the whole idea is not out of fashion. Simply because a different method of implementation is indicated does not mean that the idea is no longer valid. The fact that the sea grant concept attacks an important problem on a broad basis is what makes it so appealing.