Mr. ANDERSEN. On Friday, Mr. Horan suggested a question which I asked him to leave until this time. Will you ask that question now, Mr. Horan.

Mr. HORAN. I am, of course, very well aware of the fact that we have been doing experimental work in the field of fertilizers since the beginning of time. I just do not get much out of your justification for the additional $100,000. To my certain knowledge, every college that has any agriculture department or anything where agronomy is being taught, has been carrying on work of this nature since the founding of the colleges; that is what we founded them for. It seems to me we should go pretty slow unless we understand what the Federal Government is going to do in that field. To me, BAE exists to coordinate this work and not necessarily to do it. I would just like to know the technique, Mr. Wells, of how you go about trying to make the most of the taxpayer's dollar. This is not a Federal tax situation alone. They are not the only taxes that some of our folks have to face. Certainly, the Federal Government has a job here of coordination which has never been explained to me. I have been on this committee 8 years now and I have asked certain people in these Federal bureaus just how you go about making the most of the solid work that is being done in all of our colleges. Of course, we have the Grasslands Committee in which I assume all of our land-grant colleges and others are participating.

Mr. JOHNSON. That is right.

Mr. HORAN. I assume, although you did not mention it, that that is about what you are asking this request for. It is a noble thing, but why it should cost so much money is beyond me.

Mr. JOHNSON. There is also a cooperative Land Grant CollegeDepartment Fertilizer and Lime Committee, similar to the Grasslands Committee. Both of them have gone into this question and both of them are very much of the opinion that there is real need for studying the economic aspects of using both fertilizer and lime, especially on grasslands.

Mr. HORAN. Let us assume that is being done at a place where it can be best done, which is the land-grant colleges. For many years. my neighbors have been sending in soil samples to Washington State College and presumably Washington State College is increasingly aware of practically all the soil and soil conditions in the State of Washington. What I am trying to find out is just where does the BAE fit into this and why the $100,000?

Mr. WELLS. Mr. Horan, I think it is quite true that the various State experiment stations have carried forward a great many experiments on application of fertilizer at specific rates to specific soils and specific crops. I think it is also true that the most of those have been experiments which the natural scientists set up to test one particular combination of fertilizer and land.

For the last several years, both myself, Mr. Salter who was chief of the bureau, Bureau of Plant Industry, and more recently Mr. Moseman who is now chief, have been trying to get our farm management and soils and fertilizer people closer together and we are interested I know the State experiment stations are also interested in how these things actually apply at the farm level and we are interested in something about the range of response. In other words, as you use more or less fertilizer rather than just a particular quantity, what happens-what are farmers doing under actual farm conditions?

Mr. ANDERSEN. On that point, though, Mr. Wells, don't you think that all experiment stations are doing just that, that they are gaging the results?

Mr. WELLS. Of particular experiments?

I do not know how far they are going toward actually seeing what farmers are doing.

Mr. Horan is right that the chief motivation back of this particular project is the emphasis on the grasslands and improving pasture because we think pasture is going to be improved over the United States; we think a great deal of money in one way or another is going to be spent on it in the next 10 years and what we are looking at here is this question of how fertilizer fits into the farmer's set-up, especially as he improves his land, grassland, what does it cost him? What kind of return does he get? We do try to work with the experiment station people, to start with such experimental work as has been done.

Mr. HORAN. I am not being whimsical in this matter.

Mr. WELLS. It is being done in cooperation with the natural scientists.

Mr. HORAN. But can you break down this item? The $100,000.

USE OF INCREASE REQUESTED

Mr. ANDERSEN. Just what do you intend to do with the $100,000, if this is given to BAE?

Mr. JOHNSON. As a result of the discussions in the national fertilizer and lime committee and in the grasslands committee we have a good many requests from the land-grant college people for cooperative work of this kind. Obviously $100,000 will not go very far, that is, we cannot work with all of the State experiment stations in their agricultural economics and agronomic work on fertilizer, but what we would hope to do would be to work out cooperative research with, say, 5 or 6 State experiment stations located in the different regions, in the North, the South, and the West. What we hope to do with that $100,000 is to work out procedures that will make it possible to make similar interpretations in the other States and in other areas.

Mr. HORAN. How are you going to spend the $100,000? That is the question.

Mr. JOHNSON. We will spend it by stationing an agricultural economist in these State experiment stations to develop the economic aspects of the use of fertilizer. They would start first of all with the experimental results that the agronomists had, to see how best an economic interpretation can be made of those for different prices of fertilizer, for different prices of product, and for the crop rotation as a whole and how farmers can use fertilizer and increased grasslands most profitably.

Mr. HORAN. Is not that information available a thousand times already?

Mr. JOHNSON. Not to show the most profitable use under different price and cost conditions.

Mr. ANDERSEN. Dr. Johnson, along that line, do you not think the need for agronomy research is more urgent than economic analysis? Mr. JOHNSON. I think that we need answers to both questions, Will it work and will it pay?

Mr. ANDERSEN. I am asking you as to the degree of urgency. Do you not think this $100,000 would do more good in agronomy research? Mr. JOHNSON. I honestly think that we need work in both of those fields and that we need it very badly at the present time.

Mr. ANDERSEN. I think Mr. Wells has a comment he would like to make.

Mr. JOHNSON. We need very badly at the present time work on how much fertilizer will pay and under what condtions.

Mr. ANDERSEN. Can you add to this justification, Mr. Wells? Mr. WELLS. I want to make one general comment, Mr. Chairman. My understanding with our people in the Department is that we are to explain increase items in the current budget. But you understand these estimates are being reviewed in the Department and the Bureau of the Budget in line with other work in the Department.

Now, my own feeling on this is that I should like to see the economists and the agronomists work together, Mr. Andersen. I think that in some cases, perhaps I may be mistaken, that some of the experiments could be better designed if the two of them work together in designing the experiment. I am also interested in knowing how the farmers actually use fertilizer as opposed to the results from specific experiments where conditions are controlled with considerable care. And I think one of the best ways to get coordination, Mr. Horan, is by actually getting people at the Federal and State levels and the agronomists and economists working together. Otherwise I could not bring this item up here.

Mr. JOHNSON. That is quite right.

WORK OF FERTILIZER INDUSTRY

Mr. ANDERSEN. Mr. Wells, perhaps Mr. Johnson can tell us as to what work the fertilizer industry is doing in this particular field? Has any study, any special study, of this been made by your organization?

Mr. JOHNSON. We are fairly closely in touch with the fertilizer industry, that is, the trade associations; so far as I know, they have not done any direct work in this field. Fertilizer companies have made grants for some of the experimental work in the land-grant colleges from time to time. They are very much interested at the present time in getting research started on the economic aspects, that is, on the most profitable use of fertilizer.

Mr. HORAN: Theoretically, the Bureau of Agricultural Economics exists as a source of coordinating work in agricultural economics throughout the Nation. It is not necessarily a handy door to the United States Treasury. That would appear to be one of the things that is involved here, a principle we are discussing, Dr. Johnson, and I trust if I have been in anywise unpolite, you will forgive me, but I would still like to know. We still, I think, have not got a very good justification.

RESULTS OF PREVIOUS STUDIES

Mr. ANDERSEN. I think your comment has been very relevant, Mr. Horan. Now, Mr. Wells, have you made specific studies of this nature before in any other line and if so, what results have you shown? Mr. WELLS. We have been doing some limited work, Mr. Johnson, on Western phosphates, haven't we?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes, in cooperation with the Western States. It has been mostly exploratory. It was started 2 or 3 years ago, Mr. Horan, because of the interest in the Pacific Northwest in utilizing the phosphate deposits out there so that

Mr. HORAN. We have a low soil-phosphate area, but we have a lot of phosphates which through electrolurgical means we can unlock in southern Idaho and in southwestern Montana. Of course, since we mention that, we cannot overlook the lifetime of work that Dr. Peterson, president emeritus of the University of Utah, has done. He is way ahead, himself, and much work was done at the University of Wyoming, at Laramie on agronomy. We have one of the world's leading agronomists there. They have been doing a lot of work, and I am wondering how we are taking advantage of all this among many many others, for instance.

Mr. JOHNSON. That is what we are doing in that study of phosphates. As a matter of fact, it was organized, as Mr. Wells said, by having a representative of the Bureau of Plant Industry and a representative of the Bureau of Agricultural Economics stationed at Fort Collins, as a convenient place, working with all of the Western States; that is, going over their phosphate experiments and seeing what they did have in the way of experimental results on different soil types and trying to interpret that both from the standpoint of agronomic results and dollars-and-cents returns.

Mr. HORAN. Has that not been done yet?

Mr. JOHNSON. No.

NUMBER OF NEW PERSONNEL

Mr. ANDERSEN. How many new employees are covered by this proposed increase of $100,000?

Miss CLARK. Sixteen man-years, Dr. Johnson.

Mr. ANDERSEN. In just what grades are those particular employees?

Mr. JOHNSON. I think Miss Clark has that particular information. Miss CLARK. In the field, two in grade 12, three in grade 11, two in grade 9, and four in grade 7.

Mr. ANDERSEN. What is the starting salary for grade 12?
Miss CLARK. Grade 12 starts at $7,040.

Mr. HORAN. Are these new employees?

Miss CLARK. These would be new employees, an increase over the current year. There would also be a leader in Washington in grade 13, at $8,360; one grade 12, two in grade 11, and clerical assistance. Mr. ANDERSEN. Can you offset this by discontinuing other studies that you might have under operation at this time, Mr. Wells? Mr. WELLS. No, sir; not under this proposal.

Mr. ANDERSEN. You would not contemplate any transfer, by any

chance?

Mr. WELLS. Not in connection with this particular proposal, sir.

AVAILABILITY OF FUNDS FOR FARM LABOR RESEARCH

We are going to have to find within our current funds some money to do work on farm labor during the coming year, and in terms of savings and first priority I have told the Budget Committee in the Department that for any savings that I see in prospect the first call

should be to carry work in the farm-labor field, which I think is ex-. tremely important.

Mr. HORAN. Of course, I was hopeful that we would use R. and M. funds for research into the whole problem of farm labor and how to use the most advanced type of mechanization. We have a difficult time there because my one and my only complaint against R. and M. funds is that they have tended to help everybody before they help the farmer.

Mr. WELLS. Mr. Horan, the only funds now appropriated-Mr. Wheeler can check me on this-under R. and M. are for the purposes of title II, which must be used specifically in the marketing field. Title I or general-research funds have been combined into the various bureau appropriations. Do I make myself clear?

And all I am saying to you gentlemen is that I do propose to make some savings and transfers during the coming year in order to carry on some farm-labor studies. We have during the current fiscal year some funds available for farm-labor studies under the defense appropriation, which I do not expect to ask for or have available during the next fiscal year.

Mr. HORAN. Would it be possible when we have the R. and M. people up, Mr. Chairman, to have them outline to us the things that they are already doing in the field of increased mechanization at the farm level? Marketing, as I see it, begins with production, and it includes the gathering of crops and packaging and so forth until it is finally sold. I know that R. and M. funds are being used at the University of Michigan State College now for studies into the possibility of mechanical picking of fruit. In fact, I talked to the two men in my hometown last summer who were out there looking around. That is R. and M. funds. That is designed to look into the possibili ty of decreasing the amount and the cost of farm labor. Now, there must be other instances of those projects. I would like to have a sort of roundup of them when we get to R. and M., when we have those people before us. Can we do that?

Mr. ANDERSEN. Yes; we will certainly do that.

Mr. HORAN. Because we have to coordinate these two items here as I see it. Could you have them put a little emphasis on it? I would like to see these Marketing Act funds put a little closer to the farmer. If we are going to help the farmer, let's help him first if it is at all possible. We are helping him now in a general way by assisting in the movement of that which he produces; but the retail storekeeper, I would say, is profiting most by some of the things we are doing, and the farmer last. He always profits when his stuff is consumed; I understand that, of course.

Mr. ANDERSEN. We will go into that very thoroughly, Mr. Horan, when the others are before us.

VALUE OF FERTILIZER RESEARCH

Mr. ANDERSEN. Mr. Whitten, have you any question on this fertilizer item?

Mr. WHITTEN. Only to make this comment. I do not know as to the coordination of effort to find out the values of fertilizer; and as to