You have done a good job in the past in getting the authorizations for these programs from year to year. I might say that this program has been increased more than any other program that we have, and much of it is probably due to your interest.

Mr. JOHNSON. I want to thank the committee for their past consideration on this item. I do believe that the amounts that were allowed have meant a great deal to the income within the national forests, and have permitted them to better serve the public.

I think the money spent in this program has been in large part repaid by the increased sale of timber, the competition that these roads have brought into being on the part of the bidders for this timber, and certainly the people using our areas for recreation have enjoyed these roads.

Mr. BALDWIN. I would like to commend my colleague from California for the diligence with which he has represented over the years the district which he represents in California, which is a district that involves a great number of national forests. He has always made a very competent and conscientious statement on behalf of that district. I might say also, Mr. Chairman, that one of his constituents is here in the audience today, a very distinguished State senator from California, Senator Randolph Collier, who for many years has been chairman of the senate highway committee of the State Senate of California.

It might be appropriate to ask Senator Collier to just stand up and take a bow, Mr. Chairman, because he has probably done more in the State of California to produce the outstanding network of freeways in that State than any other single man in the State.

Mr. FALLON. On behalf of the committee, let me welcome you here this morning, Senator Collier. I have had the pleasure of meeting with you before. Certainly your record of accomplishment came to Washington before you did.

Mr. JOHNSON. In closing, Mr. Chairman, I want to say Senator Randolph Collier will fully endorse my statement here this morning. He is one of my nine State senators that serve in the State Senate of California from this vast district that I represent, here, and I can say that he and the other eight will fully support this program. Thank you.

Mr. FALLON. Mr. Koch?

STATEMENT OF ROBERT M. KOCH, PRESIDENT, NATIONAL
LIMESTONE INSTITUTE, INC.

Mr. KосH. Mr. Chairman, in the interest of saving time, I would be glad to put this in the record.

Mr. FALLON. Will you give the reporter your full name and title? Mr. KOCH. Very good.

Mr. Chairman, my name is Robert M. Koch. I am president of the National Limestone Institute, Inc., a trade association representing 562 limestone producers.

Mr. FALLON. Mr. Koch, without any objection, your statement in full can be made a part of the record.

(Statement referred to follows:)

STATEMENT OF ROBERT M. KOCH, PRESIDENT, NATIONAL LIMESTONE INSTITUTE, INC.

Mr. Chairman, my name is Robert M. Koch. I am president of the National Limestone Institute, Inc., a trade association representing 562 limestone producers in 36 States and I am presenting this statement today on behalf of this membership. We appreciate the opportunity to express our views on H.R. 9905 and H.R. 9906 and we wish to go on record as supporting enactment of this legislation.

As you know, this industry participates to a large extent as a major material supplier for highway construction. I should also like to call this committee's attention to the fact that last year the limestone industry, according to the Bureau of Mines statistics, produced and sold over 275,878,000 tons of concrete and roadstone, supplied over 23 million tons of agricultural limestone to the farmers of our Nation, as well as over 15 million tons of railroad ballast and riprap, in addition to many lesser amounts of other products derived from limestone, and, of course, had to utilize our Nation's highway systems to make deliveries.

Consequently, like nearly everyone else that utilizes our highways, we have a major interest in road construction and maintenance. I have already transmitted to the members of this committee the resolution passed on January 21, here in Washington at our 19th annual convention, concerning our views on your action in connection with H.R. 8853. However, I did not want to let this opportunity pass without reaffirming our commendation on your moving forward in this critical area of planning. Through recent years the obtaining of $1 billion for the ABC system, which H.R. 9905 and H.R. 9906 authorize, seemed at first like an idealistic goal and then as it began to materialize, like the final answer. It seems to us that even though there may be sound and logical reasons for not increasing this figure with annual increments at this time, we should not let it become an established ceiling. Certainly, this committee knows better than we do that vehicle registrations, vehicular miles traveled, etc., etc., are constantly going up and will continue to rise steadily. One phase of our job that we on the NLI staff have is to travel all over this country. We call on over 1,000 limestone producers annually. I wish that members of this committee could retrace with me one of our trips 10 years ago compared with one of last year's trips. Of course, you all have had similar experiences and I am sure you, as well as I, have had the experience of dropping off of our outstanding Interstate System onto some very outdated and inadequate secondary roads.

We all realize that we can't update all of our roads overnight, but our board, after making a very thorough study of the facts-and I will be glad to make a copy of the material we reviewed available if you wish-believe that this Nation cannot afford not to accelerate our secondary systems. When all the facts concerning our highways, which you gentlemen are well aware of, are considered, as well as President Johnson's program to attack the "pockets of poverty” it seems to us that the annual increments for these systems should be $50 million a year until these roads are adequate to meet the needs of the taxpaying, highway using general public.

Hardly any Federal program has a more significant or immediate effect on a distressed area than does a roadbuilding project. Our national needs in both of these areas could well be served by an accelerated program in the pockets-ofpoverty areas. We could have a three-pronged result-more and adequate roads, the creation of employment opportunities for the many unskilled, unemployed people in these areas and a closer realization of our safety goals which have been so dramatically demonstrated by the record on our Interstate System. And so, as this committee charts the future of our ABC systems, we hope-yes, we know, that you gentlemen will make the right decisions after considering all the factors which necessarily have to be taken into account, when such a vast program as this is involved.

Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, thank you very much for the privilege of appearing to support H.R. 9905 and to present this statement.

Mr. KOCH. I would like to just make two comments, then and I will be through.

We appreciate the chance to be here to support H.R. 9905 and 9906. We are very much in favor of this legislation, and want you to know we are back of it.

And if I may drop down to page 2, I would like to just read these two paragraphs.

We all realize that we cannot update all of our roads over night, but our board, after making a very thorough study of the facts-and I will be glad to make a copy of the material we reviewed available, if you wish-believe that this Nation cannot afford not to accelerate our secondary systems.

When all the facts concerning our highways, which you gentlemen are well aware of, are considered, as well as President Johnson's program to attack "the pockets of poverty," it seems to us that the annual increments for these systems should be $50 million a year until these roads are adequate to meet the needs of the taxpaying highway-using general public.

Hardly any Federal program has a more significant or immediate effect on a distressed area than does a roadbuilding project. Our national needs in both of these areas could well be served by an accelerated program in the "pockets of poverty" areas.

We could have a three-pronged result-more and adequate roads, the creation of employment opportunities for the many unskilled, unemployed people in these areas, and a closer realization of our safety goals which have been so dramatically demonstrated by the record of our interstate system.

And so, as this committee charts the future of our ABC systems, we hope yes, we know-that you gentlemen will make the right decisions after considering all the factors which necessarily have to be taken into account, when such a vast program as this is involved.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, for the privilege of appearing.

Mr. BALDWIN. Mr. Koch, what is the position of your organization as to the various bills that have been introduced in the House of Representatives to make some raids on the highway trust fund, notably and specifically H.R. 5050, which was voted out of the House Ways and Means Committee several months ago, and which would allow taxicab companies to get a rebate of 2 cents out of the 4 cents that they pay for Federal gas tax?

Mr. KOCH. Mr. Baldwin, our organization has always been opposed to any raid on this particular highway fund, as you may know from our appearances before the various House and Senate committees.

Mr. BALDWIN. What specific action have you taken to express your views to the Members of the House against H.R. 5050?

Mr. KOCH. The only thing we have done to date is to talk to individual Members personally. We have not submitted anything formally up to this point.

Mr. BALDWIN. Well, I think it would be appropriate to state that this bill is now pending before the House Rules Committee, which might set up a meeting at any time, and I hope that you will make your views known forcibly, not only in discussion but in letter form, to the Members of Congress, because this bill has already gone one step further than I think it should have gone, because the interested groups

have not expressed themselves sufficiently to make the proper people in the House aware of the opposition to the bill.

Mr. KOCH. Possibly we should have done more than we have, and we certainly shall take your advice.

Mr. SCHWENGEL. I just want to say it is good to see you, Mr. Koch, again.

He and I have worked together on a lot of interesting measures before the Congress.

I am glad to have you say what you did as to the taxi driver situation. I am real sensitive about that, because recently I made a trip and had to take a plane from Hanover to Boston, and then take a taxi to Harvard and keep an appointment there. I found out that it cost half as much to take a taxi from the airport to Harvard Law School as it does to fly from Hanover to Boston by airplane, so it seems to me that these taxi drivers can afford to pay that tax.

Mr. KOCH. We quite agree with you, Congressman.

Mr. FALLON. Thank you again for coming up this morning.
Mr. KOCH. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. FALLON. Mr. Nelson?

I see you have a prepared statement, Mr. Nelson. Would you want to read it, or summarize it and put it in its entirety into the record?

STATEMENT OF M. M. NELSON, DEPUTY CHIEF OF THE FOREST SERVICE, DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE

Mr. NELSON. Mr. Chairman, I would like to read the first page or so, and then I will summarize it and we can put it in the record.

I am M. M. Nelson, Deputy Chief of the Forest Service. It is a real pleasure for me to appear before this committee, and I appreciate the privilege and opportunity of making a statement on this bill which would authorize these appropriations for 1966 and 1967.

H.R. 10055 was transmitted to Congress by the Secretary of Commerce on February 12 of this year, with the recommendation that it be enacted. Since this bill is the bill which we favor for enactment, this paper and comments will deal with H.R. 10055.

Assistant Secretary John Baker had planned to be here, but is confined to the hospital. Had he been here, he would have wanted to express to you the importance of this legislation in the overall programs of the Department of Agriculture.

One of the main objectives of the Department is the raising of the level of both the economic and cultural opportunities of rural people, whether they live on farms or in small communities, making sure that rural people are able to enjoy a pattern of living comparable to that of the rest of our citizens.

This objective cannot be accomplished without an adequate road system that serves rural America. The roads and highways for which this bill would authorize appropriations would be a means toward this goal. All of them will strengthen the economic and social development of rural America.

A prime example of the development which an adequate road system will foster and perpetuate is the development of outdoor recreation on privately owned rural lands. This represents a high type of rural area development. It is not only a way of serving the city people who are seeking relaxation and enjoyment, but also a sound

use of agricultural lands not needed for crop production, a use that in some areas promises to be more profitable to landowners than the production of crops already in surplus could possibly be.

Mr. Chairman, that is the portion that John Baker would have included in his statement. The rest of our statement we can file. (The statement referred to follows:)

STATEMENT OF M. M. NELSON, DEPUTY CHIEF OF THE FOREST SERVICE, DEPARTMENT

OF AGRICULTURE

Mr. Chairman and committee members; it is a pleasure for me to appear before your committee. I appreciate the privilege and opportunity to make a statement on these bills which would authorize appropriations for the fiscal years 1966 and 1967 for the construction of certain highways in accordance with title 23 of the United States Code.

H.R. 10055 was transmitted to the Congress by the Secretary of Commerce on February 12, 1964, with the recommendation that it be enacted. Since this is the bill which we favor for enactment, I will confine my remarks to it.

Assistant Secretary Baker had planned to be here but is confined to the hospital. Had he been here he would have wanted to express to you the importance of this legislation in the overall programs of the Department of Agriculture.

One of the main objectives of the Department is the raising of the level of both the economic and cultural opportunities of rural people, whether they live on farms or in small communities, making sure that rural people are able to enjoy a pattern of living comparable to that of the rest of our citizens. This objective cannot be accomplished without an adequate transportation system that serves rural America. The roads and highways for which this bill would authorize appropriations would be a means toward this goal. All of them will strengthen the economic and social development of rural America. A prime example of the development which an adequate road system will foster and perpetuate is the development of outdoor recreation on privately owned rural lands. This represents a high type of rural area development. It is not only a way of serving the city family seeking relaxation and enjoyment, but also a sound way of using agricultural lands not needed for crop production—a use that in some areas promises to be more profitable to landowners than the production of crops, already in surplus, could possibly be.

This legislation is also of vital interest to the Department of Agriculture because it would provide authorizations for both of the ground transportation systems which serve the national forests. One is a network of forest highways; the other is a network of forest development roads and trails. Both networks are essential for developing and obtaining the maximum practicable yield and use of the products and services of the nationl forests on a continuing basis under the multiple-use sustained yield principle. The authorization for public lands highways is also of interest to us since some of these funds have been used in national forest areas.

The national forest system consists of 186 million acres of Federal lands and waters located in 41 States and the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico. It is mostly made up of 154 individual national forests with 182 million acres and 19 national grasslands with 4 million acres. This vast domain of Federal lands has invaluable resources of recreation, timber, water, forage, minerals, and fish and wildlife intended to be administered for the benefit of all people-local, State, and National.

The transportation system which serves the national forest part of the national forest system is a complex of highways and access roads and trails under various ownerships and jurisdictions. For administrative purposes these facilities are grouped into a forest highway system and a forest development road and trail system.

Forest highways are parts of Federal-aid, State, county, and other public highways in and adjacent to the national forests. They also provide access to and outlet from forest development roads and trails. They are heavily used by persons visiting the national forests for recreation and other purposes. Most of the products of the forests move over these highways en route to mill or market.

The forest highway system is administered by the Secretary of Commerce through the Bureau of Public Roads. There are about 25,500 miles of roads