Mr. SMITH. Thank you very much not only for your very extensive and excellent statement, but also for being brief. Thank you. Mr. COBER. Thank you.

W. MELVIN ADAMS, INTERIM EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, AMERICANS UNITED FOR SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE; AND ALBERT J. MENENDEZ, RESEARCH DIRECTOR

Mr. SMITH. Mr. Adams, Americans United for Separation of Church and State.

Mr. ADAMS. Thank you for granting us the privilege of testifying. My name is Melvin Adams. With me is Albert Menendez, our Research Assistant.

I am the Interim Executive Director of Americans United for Separation of Church and State. Americans United has been dedicated solely to the preservation of religious liberty through the separation of church and state. Our members represent different religious and political persuasions, but they are all united in their commitment to the idea that the separation of church and state is good for religion and good for government.

We are proud of the fact that many different religions get along in this country without blood shed or serious problems, and we cherish and defend the Constitution and the Bill of Rights because we feel this system of law has made it possible for these diverse groups to get along peacefully and work together in the same communities.

As you are aware, this is our first opportunity to address this issue. We vigorously oppose the establishment of diplomatic relations between the Government of the United States of America and any organization that is primarily religious in nature. And we ask this subcommittee to oppose any reprogramming of existing State Department funds or new appropriations of funds for that purpose. Our opposition to establishment of relationships with our government and the Holy See is based on four points which are in my written testimony which I understand will be a part of the record. No. 1, such a recognition violates the establishment clause of the First Amendment of the Federal Constitution.

No. 2, it invites excessive entanglement between church and state.

No. 3, it will lead to political division along religious lines. No. 4, it opens the door for government intervention in religious affairs and religious intervention in government affairs.

We, as a nation, have had some very black spots in our history. It seems that almost every colony in our early history maintained some form of harassment against members of the Roman Catholic Church. This took the form of different places, sometimes it was restricting these people from public worship, or excluding them from public or political life, or in other places it was double taxation, and still others prohibiting them from inheriting land or estates. Unfortunately, there convents were burned, their homes were burned, their churches were burned, and some of them, their blood was spilled, and some lost their lives.

Speaking of this black part of our history, the historian, Carlton Benes describes it this way: "All over the country," he said, "Catholic Churches were stoned, dynamited, burned and wrecked.

Crosses were stolen, windows smashed, altars were torn out," and his description goes on.

Personally, I am very much ashamed of that part of our American history. It is black. It is ugly. It makes me uneasy, and I am thankful it is behind us.

Today Catholics and all other religions are protected by law, but it seems some have forgotten those black, ugly days.

We have had a successful Catholic President, and we were proud of him. Many of us live next door to Catholics, and they are good citizens and good friends. Even though the fabric of our pluralistic society has many different colors religiously, the aim of most of them seems to be for understanding, for respect and for peace.

The move to establish diplomatic ties with the Holy See threatens the religious peace of our nation. I am aware of the technical excuse used to justify the appointment, that it is a sovereign state, but those Americans understand it as it is.

It was made because the Catholic Church stands as a spiritual influence reaching into most parts of the world. At a time when all churches are equal before the law and the government has the duty and responsibility to treat them as equals, an action is taken favoring one particular church, and it is not a minor action, it is a serious action. If there is any question as to how serious that is, we might just imagine a reverse of the circumstances. Let the Congress pass a law or set things into motion for an ambassador to the World Council of Churches, and it wouldn't be within a few weeks until we would have the answer from every Roman Catholic paper in this country, that it was discrimination, it was favoritism and so on. It is.

It is a step backward. It would be if it were to the World Council of Churches. It is to the Roman Catholic Church. I am afraid it may be the first step setting the stage for religious discrimination, and to say otherwise is really to ignore the record of history.

If history teaches us anything, it demonstrates that the Roman Catholic Church has rarely missed an opportunity to exploit its advantages, when it is in their power to make such a move. In this favoritism, we run the risk of unnecessarily awakening the ghosts of religious bigotry from the past.

Because of this and many other arguments that have been made that we will not rehash, we respectfully urge you and your committee to oppose reprogramming of existing funds or new appropriation of funds for the purpose of sending an ambassador to the Holy See.

Thank you, sir.

Mr. SMITH. Thank you very much for your statement. [The statement of W. Melvin Adams follows:]

Americans United for Separation of Church and State

8120 FENTON STREET SILVER SPRING, MARYLAND 20910 (301) 589-3707

Testimony of:

W. Melvin Adams
Interim Executive Director

Americans United for Separation of Church and State

on

The Reprogramming and/or Appropriation of Funds for a

U.S. Ambassador to the Holy See

February 9, 1984

Your voice in the battle to preserve religious liberty

Mr. Chairman and Members of the Committee:

My name is W. Melvin Adams. I am interim executive director of Americans United for Separation of Church and State, a 37 yearold national organization dedicated solely to the preservation of religious liberty through the separation of church and state.

Our members represent many different religious and political persuasions. But they are all united in their commitment to the idea that separation of church and state is good for religion and good for government.

We cherish and defend the marvelous religious diversity in the United States. We understand the contribution our spiritual communities have made to the nation. We pay personal tribute to His Holiness Pope John Paul II for his generous spirit, his personal courage, and his work on behalf of world peace

and human rights.

We vigorously oppose the establishment of diplomatic relations between the government of the United States of America and any organization that is primarily religious in nature. And we ask this subcommittee to oppose any reprogramming of existing State Department funds or new appropriations of funds for that purpose. We insist that our concerns are not overdrawn ideological rhetoric. Our opposition comes from the deepest wells of concern over the threat to religious liberty this recognition portends.

We oppose the establishment of diplomatic relations between our government and the Holy See for the following reasons:

1. Such recognition violates the Establishment Clause of

the First Amendment of the federal Constitution, which states, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

2. Such recognition invites excessive entanglement between church and state. In Everson v. Board of Education, 330 U.S. 1, 15-16 (1947), the Supreme Court stated: "The 'establishment of religion' clause of the First Amendment means at least this: Neither a state nor the federal government can set up a church. Neither can pass laws which aid one religion, aid all religions, or prefer one religion over another. .. Neither a state nor the Federal Government can, openly or secretly, participate in the affairs of any religious organizations or groups or vice versa. In the words of Jefferson, the clause against establishment of religion by law was intended to erect a 'wall of separation between Church and State.'"

Allow me to draw two conclusions from this Supreme Court

ruling:

a. The Holy See is a religious entity. Roman Catholic leadership readily admits the Holy See is a religious entity. Archbishop Cardinale, a prominent member of the Holy See's diplomatic service says, "The Holy See is the supreme organ of the Church universal in its contacts with other members of the international community." The Archbishop further says, in describing the various functions of the Holy See: "Sometimes it denotes the Pope together with the central offices of the Roman Curia, formed of the sacred congregations, the tribunals and the various other departments. Sometimes it designates

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