Thereupon the witnesses, Messrs. S. M. Musselman and Paul E. Whitmer, and the petitioner, Martha Jane Graber, were duly sworn.

Thereupon the witnesses, S. M. Musselman and Paul E. Whitmer, were examined by Mr. Kennedy as follows:

Q. Where were your born, Mr. Musselman?—A. Eastern part of Pennsylvania. Q. How long have you know Miss Martha Jane Graber?-A. Ever since she was in the country; I don't know how many years.

Q. How long have you known her here in Ohio?-A. Ever since she was here. Q. When was that?-A. About 1925.

Q. September of 1925?—A. I think it was something like that.

Q. How about you, Mr. Whitmer? How long have you known her?-A. Since September, 1925.

Q. You were born here, too?-A. Yes, sir.

Q. Have you been in any trouble at any time?-A. No, sir.

Q. Answer, Reverend Musselman. A. No, sir.

Q. Is Miss Graber a member of, affiliated with, or associated with any organization opposed to government?-A. No, sir.

Q. Both of you recommend her to citizenship?

(Both answer in the affirmative.)

MARTHA JANE GRABER.

Examination by Mr. KENNEDY:

Q. Miss Graber, have you been in any trouble at any time in any way?-A. No, sir.

Q. Are you a member of, associated or affiliated with any organization opposed to government?-A. No, sir.

Q. You have not been away from the United States at all since 1910?-A. No, sir.

Q. And you have been living here since 1925?-A. Yes, sir.

Q. You filed a previous petition in this court?-A. Yes, sir.

Q. And that petition was dismissed some time ago because at the time it developed that you had conscientious objections to serving in the Army in time of war, if need be; will you explain to the court your position at this time in regard to that matter?-A. What do you mean?

Q. Are you willing to serve in the Army, if need be, in time of war?-A. I am willing to serve in my profession.

Q. What do you mean by willing to serve in your profession?—A. I am a registered nurse.

Q. What do you understand, Miss Graber, to be meant by taking an oath to support and defend the Constitution of the United States?-A. Free speech and free press and free religion, and I understand that if I become a citizen I will support the Constitution.

Q. That does not answer my question.-A. Beg your pardon! that question again?

What was

Q. My question was: What do you understand to be meant by taking an oath to support and defend the Constitution of the United States?-A. Defend the Constitution the best I can in my profession. It seems to me it would mean to defend the Constitution in the way in which it would seem that you could do it the best; that you would mean most to your country.

Q. Suppose your country saw fit to demand your service in the Army in time of war as a combatant, to take part in the war; explain what you would do under such circumstances?-A. I would go to the front in my profession.

Q. That doesn't answer my question. My question was: Suppose you were called upon to act as a combatant in time of war for the United States, would you fight?-A. That would not be professional as a nurse.

Q. That doesn't answer the question: Are you willing to fight for the United States if need be? You understand what is meant by fighting, Miss Graber; I mean to take up arms in defense of the United States if necessary?-A. I can not kill, but I would be willing to give my life.

Q. Do I understand that you mean that you are unwilling to fight for the United States?-A. Do you mean by "fighting," killing?

Q. I do if necessary. Such is war, Miss Graber.-A. [Witness hesitates.] Q. Your answer?-A. Do you want an answer or what?

Q. The question is as to whether or not in time of war, if need be, you are willing to shed blood in defense of the United States.-A. I said I would be willing to shed my own blood to protect this Government.

Q. I am not asking you as to your willingness to shed your own blood, I am asking you as to your willingness to shed the blood of others if need be?-A. I conscientiously could not do that.

Q. If there is anything else you would like to get into the record, Miss Graber, I want you to have free opportunity to do it because at this time, if the court please, I am going to ask the petition be denied for the reason that the petitioner can not unreservedly take an oath to support and defend the Constitution of the United States.

Mr. STEINER. I would like to ask a question. Supposing you were in the front rank serving as a nurse for this country and you were waiting on an American soldier and an enemy was pointing his gun toward the soldier that you were treating and nursing, would you protect that soldier?

A. I would.

Q. Can you give any reasons why you would prefer to be a citizen of this country over any other country in the world?-A. First of all I like this form of government; I like the freedom that this country gives to its citizens; and I like the schools of this country and the training I have received from this country.

Q. Did you attend the public schools of this country? A. Yes, sir.
Q. Where?-A. In Iowa.

Q. The State of Iowa?-A. Yes, sir.

Q. How long did you attend public schools in Iowa ?-A. Until I was 16. Q. How old were you when you commenced to attend those public schools?— A. I wasn't quite 10.

Q. Did you attend any other schools elsewhere here in this country?—A. Yes, sir; I did.

Q. Where?-A. In Newton, Kans.

Q. What kind of a school was that?-A. An academy.

Q. Any other place?-A. I attended a school in Ohio for three years in the

summer.

Q. I believe you stated that you were a registered nurse; of what State are you a registered nurse?-A. I am a registered nurse of three States.

Q. What States are those?-A. Ohio, Kansas, and Iowa.

Q. If this country should become involved in war you would willingly give you services in your profession as a nurse?-A. I would, gladly.

Q. Would you go to the battle front if the Army should ask you to go?—

A. I would; yes.

Q. Would you do the things the Army would request you to do?—A. Yes, in my profession.

Mr. LUDWIG. Do you love the United States?

A. I do.

Q. Would you give your life for the United States?-A. I would.

Q. Where were you born?-A. In Alsace-Lorraine.

Q. When did you some to this country?-A. In 1910.

Q. Have you any relatives in America?-A. Yes, sir; my folks are all here. Q. Who are your folks?-A. I have a mother alive and my brothers and sisters.

Q. Have you any brothers or sisters who have been naturalized as citizens of the United States?-A. Yes, sir.

Q. Have you or any of your brothers and sisters or your mother ever had any difficulty of any kind with the United States?—A. No, sir; never.

Q. Or had any trouble that caused the United States Government or your State government any trouble?-A. No, sir.

Mr. STEINER. You understand the Constitution and laws and the history of this Nation do you not?

A. Yes, sir; I think I do.

Q. Well, have you been back to Germany any time since you have been in this country?-A. No, sir.

Q. Have you any connections with Germany at this time, property rights or anything of that kind?-A. No, sir.

Q. Is your mother still living in Iowa?-A. Yes, sir.

Q. Would you be willing to affirm your allegiance to the United States?A. I would.

The COURT. When you have been asked if you would bear arms or fight in defense of this country you have made answer each time that you would

volunteer or give your services as a nurse, even to the shedding of your own blood; has that been your answer?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What are you reserving? What are you holding back? What is your ojection to saying that you will fight or bear arms in defense of your country? Why do you answer by saying that you would be a nurse instead of answering that you will fight or bear arms in defense of your country? What are you holding back?-A. How does the first amendment read?

Q. I am not on the witness stand; I am asking you the question.-A. Well, it seems to me

Q. I want to know what your objection is, what reservation you have from answering that you will bear arms or fight in defense of your country?— A. First of all it wouldn't be ethical in my profession after I took the oath that I will be true to my profession.

Q. Are you to determine that or is the Government to determine what you shall do?-A. If I have a form of religion it seems to me it is my————

Q. What is your reservation? That is the question I put to you. What are you holding back when you say you will not bear arms for your country? Mr. KENNEDY. The question of the form of religion is no part of this inquiry in this proceeding. This lady has stated that she loves the freedom to be found here and she must realize that the freedom we have here has been bought and maintained by blood; it has been that since the foundation of the Republic. No matter what her individual opinions are as to the necessity of war or as to whether or not society shall at some time find a method whereby war shall be avoided, when one seeks citizenship in this or any other country it seems as though that person ought to be willing absolutely, unqualifiedly, and unreservedly to take an oath to support the government in which that one seeks citizenship in time of war and not to assert that that one shall have the right to dictate the method that he or she will follow, but rather to assume in full the obligations that that government might impose, be it to serve at battle, if necessary, to shed blood in time of war, or such other method as the government might ask. There must be no reservation. I ask that this petition be denied. The COURT. I want to be fair with you, Miss Graber. Have you any near relatives in this country?

Answer. Yes, sir; my mother and brothers and sisters are in this country. Q. Let us suppose a case; for instance, that you were standing next to your mother and she should be attacked and assaulted; what would be your duty then? A. To try and protect her.

Q. How? By becoming her nurse after she was assaulted or by aiding in her defense?-A. By aiding in her defense.

Q. Now, are you willing now to take an oath that you would defend your country in the same manner that you would protect your mother.-A. I would. Q. And that means that you would fight in defense of your country the same as you would in defense of your mother. That is what the oath means and are you willing to take the oath that you would fight to defend your country the same as you would fight to defend your mother if she was attacked, even to bearing arms? That is what the oath requires.-A. I would be willing to defend my country as I would be willing to defend any of my folks.

Q. Even to the point of bearing arms and shedding of blood?-A. I don't say what I would be willing to do at a time like that.

Q. Supposing such a case, then what would you be willing to do?-A. I don't know; none of us know just what we would be willing to do in a time like that.

Q. Have you any hesitancy in saying now what you would do to protect your mother in event it became necessary? Would you have to stop and think about that?-A. No; I would be willing to do all I could.

Q. Even to the bearing of arms or taking the life of her assailant, wouldn't you, if it was necessary to preserve her life and defend her?-A. I would be willing to give my life for her.

Q. But you would not be willing to bear arms to protect your mother?— A. (No response.)

Q. (Question repeated.)-A. No; I could not.

Q. What?-A. I could not kill.

Q. Even though it became necessary to protect your own mother?—A. No, sir; I could not kill.

Q. Even if it became necessary for the Government to call upon you for your services, other than as a nurse, to protect it to the point of bearing arms, and if that resulted in the taking of life, you could not take an oath to do that? In other words, what the oath means is that you give all, without any reservations; that is all we are asking you; we are not asking you to go out and kill somebody, but we are asking you to take an oath that if such a thing becomes necessary you would not hesitate to do it; that is, that you think that much of your country that you would fight to defend it to the last ditch; that is all we are asking you to do; and we are not asking you to do it, it's a privilege the Government has conferred upon you. We are not asking you to become a citizen, but we require all who wish to become citizens to take that oath. It is a privilege you are asking for, not one you are entitled to as a matter of right, but simply the law gives you that right; and you want to become a citizen, as I understand it, in order that you may go to Africa to act as a missionary and if you do that and your rights were in any way put in jeopardy over there and you were attacked, you would want to call upon this Government to come forth and defend you; that would mean the taking of life if necessary to defend your rights as a citizen of the United States and if you want that right you certainly ought to be willing to give it for someone else if you are asking for it yourself. I am going to give you a little while to think it over; I don't want you to make any mistake. It is not because of you, Miss Graber, it is because of the principle involved that this court will act; not with any feeling toward you at all, but only of upholding the principle as the court sees it. I will give you a little time to think it over. Now, I will ask you this question: If the Government should deem it necessary for you to bear arms in defense of this country, would you do so?-A. As I said before I could not bear arms; I could not kill; but I am willing to be sacrificed for this country.

The COURT. The petition of the applicant will be dismissed.

To which ruling of the court the petitioner, by her counsel, then and there and at the time excepted.

NATIONAL COUNCIL FOR PREVENTION OF WAR,

Washington, D. C., November 1, 1929.

NEWS BULLETIN

Findings of the annual meeting of the National Council for Prevention of War held in Washington, D. C., October 29-31, 1929, and embodying policies which this delegated body recommends to affiliated organizations.

CONSCIENCE AND CITIZENSHIP

The council recommends indorsement of the proposal of Representative Griffin to divorce admission to citizenship from any requirement as to bearing

arms.

The CHAIRMAN. Mrs. Lloyd, do you think that new citizens have freedom of conscience?

Mrs. LLOYD. I think the alien applying for citizenship should not be asked for his opinions at all.

The CHAIRMAN. Should he be asked his opinions on philosophical subjects?

Mrs. LLOYD. His opinions on philosophical subjects? No; I would not think so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Or on religious subjects?

Mrs. LLOYD. No; if you tried to regulate them, you could not, because ideas are free.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Will you hear the Rev. Silas Grubb now, of the Mennonites?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

STATEMENT OF REV. SILAS M. GRUBB, PASTOR OF MENNONITE CHURCH AND HEAD OF THE MENNONITE

The CHAIRMAN. Will you give your name and address for the record, please?

Mr. GRUBB. Silas M. Grubb; 2956 North Twelfth Street, Philadelphia, Pa.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you appear for a society or an organization or in your individual capacity?

Mr. GRUBB. I am a pastor of a Mennonite church and head of The Mennonite, which is the organ of the general conference of Menonites of North America.

I would like to submit for your examination a photostat of the Christian's confession of faith of the Mennonites in 1927, which was printed by Bradford in Philadelphia. It has the inscription:

Sent me by the Mennonites in February, 1754, on their intention of applying to the assembly for a naturalization act.

This confession is a reprint of another confession that was printed in Holland in 1712 for the benefit of English religious refugees who identified themselves with the Mennonites in Holland, and it has been reprinted ever since.

There is an item there which commits us to the doctrine of nonresistance. This is the historic position of the Mennonite Church.

I also have here a photostat of a broadside that was issued in 1775 in Pennsylvania stating to the legislature of Pennsylvania the position of the Mennonites on nonresistance. This copy is in German. Unfortunately I do not have an English copy.

The CHAIRMAN. When you say "broadside," what do you mean? Mr. GRUBB. A circular that is printed and broadcast.

The CHAIRMAN. You do not mean it in a military sense?

Mr. GRUBB. Military sense? Hardly.

The CHAIRMAN. You are militant in type?

Mr. GRUBB. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. We are all that way, too.

Mr. GRUBB. My statement will probably require about 10 minutes. The CHAIRMAN. Take your time.

Mr. GRUBB. The Mennonite people came to Pennsylvania upon the invitation of William Penn. He had been a visitor to numerous Mennonite churches in Holland and Germany and was altogether in sympathy with many of their teachings, including nonresistance. They first settled in Germantown, now a part of the city of Philadelphia, and from there branched out into Virginia, Maryland, Ohio, and Indiana and many other Western States. Being a farming people the greater portion of the membership of the Mennonite church is naturally found in rural districts. They have behind them the traditions of 400 years of pioneer life. The outlying islands of Holland, the swamps of Poland, the steppes of Russia, the valleys of Turkestan, the slopes of the Armor River in Siberia, the jungles of Paraguay, as well as the raw lands of Pennsylvania and the prairies of Indiana, Illinois, Kansas, Nebraska, Dakota, Minnesota, and other States, notably in Canada, were peopled by them and