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within that area which was protected for them by the North Vietnamese troops, and then as they began to gain a capacity themselves through the supply of arms, training and the organization of their own forces. They began to get an independent military capabilityindependent to the extent that it only depends upon the North Vietnamese for its supplies, and there is a certain amount of advice.

We figure there are several thousand North Vietnamese troops, soldiers, still serving with the Cambodian Red forces, but they are not the combat forces, they are advisory and logistical support personnel; they probably helped them a little bit with training and how to fire rockets and how to maintain their equipment. That sort of thing undoubtedly has some North Vietnamese import. That is the way it happened over a period of 5 years.


Mr. FOUNTAIN. Who in your opinion are the major figures now in control of the Khmer Rouge rebels?

Mr. HABIB. Well, the on-the-ground leader is a man whose name is fairly well known, his name is Khieu Shamphan. He was at one time, as a matter of fact, in the sixties or the fifties, a minister of the Sihanouk government. He was the Minister of Commerce at one time in the sixties. He was a member of the National Assembly and actually at one time was the Minister of Commerce in the Sihanouk regime. He was a Sihanouk exile. At one point, as a matter of fact, it was alleged that Sihanouk had him killed, but the guy got away and he went to Hanoi. A number of others of that Communist leadership group left the country and went to Hanoi. Khieu Shamphan is Minister of Defense and Deputy Premier in the government in exile.

There are others like him who perform various functions in the Khmer Rouge forces and in their control system. We don't know all their names. We can supply the formal breakdown to the committee for its information.

[The following information was supplied:]

Prince Norodom Sihanouk, Chief of State of the Kingdom of Cambodia and Chairman of the National United Front of Kampuchea (FUNK).


Prime Minister: Penn Nouth

Deputy Prime Minister; Minister of National Defense: Khieu Shamphan

Minister of Interior, Security, Cooperatives and Communal Reforms: Hou Yuon Minister of Information and Propaganda: Hu Nim

Minister of Foreign Affairs: Sarin Chhak

Minister of Justice and Judicial Reforms: Norodom Phurissara

Minister of Public Health: Thiounn Thoeunn

Minister of Public Works, Telecommunications and Reconstruction: Toch Phoeun
Minister of Religious and Social Affairs: Chou Chet

Minister of Popular Education and Youth: Khieu Thirith
Minister of National Economy and Finance: Koy Thouon
Minister of Military Equipment and Armament: Men San
Deputy Minister of Security: Sok Thuok

Deputy Minister of National Defense: Kong Sophal

Deputy Minister of Information and Propaganda: Tiv Ol
Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs: Ros Chet Thor
Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs: Van Piny

Mr. FOUNTAIN. What I was leading to is how many parties or how many groups would have to be represented in negotiations to bring an end to this conflict?

Mr. HABIB. Basically I would say three if you want to look at it this way, or two if you wish to look at it a different way. Three if you would look at it as the present government of Phnom Penh, the Khmer Rouge leadership and whatever Sihanouk represents. Two if you would argue that, well, it is basically the present government and everybody who are opposed to them who are organized in some sort of loose fashion under the nominal authority of Sihanouk. That is all it would take.


Mr. FOUNTAIN. Just one more question, Mr. Chairman.

I understand you were with the congressional delegation that made the recent visit there, and there are some news stories which indicated that Lon Nol had stated that if it would help bring about a settlement he might be willing to step down as President. There seems to be some confusion on that point. Now you were present on that occasion. What is your understanding of what was said?

Mr. HABIB. There was a meeting between the group and President Lon Nol in his office.

Do we have that record?

What I would like to do is provide the exact sentence that has been the subject of that speculation for the record, but I will tell you what was said more or less. I will provide you the precise wording.

Mr. HAMILTON. Without objection.

[The following information was supplied :]


Our people are endowed with a constitution and many institutions, democratic institutions. We are just defending the constitution and the institutions. I was brought to this high office by the institutionalized organization, but for the peace of my country and for the welfare of my country I would do whatever is possible and necessary so that peace and the welfare of my people can be achieved.

Mr. HABIB. There is some question of interpretation of what is involved. He had just spoken of the fact that they had a constitution and so on, and what he in effect said was that although he was in office by an institutionalized system, he would not wish to be an obstacle to peace in Cambodia. He did not consider himself, or he was prepared not to be, an obstacle-some phrase like that which I will provide formally for the record. That is to the best of my recollection. From that the delegation drew the conclusion, and the press have so reported, that what he was saying in effect was that he didn't want to stand in the way of a peaceful settlement.

Mr. FOUNTAIN. Was it your opinion or the opinion of the State Department and our military as to what would be accomplished if he actually stepped down?


Mr. HABIB. Well, do you mean prior to his settlement or-I think that is a decision frankly that Mr. Lon Nol would have to make. His

Prime Minister, Long Boret, yesterday in an interview in Phnom Penh made a statement along the lines of-and we will provide that precisely for the record also-that his government did not wish to be an obstacle to peace, but he did not say anything as to stepping down unless there were negotiations. We will provide that precise statement for the record also. Again, a further indication that what they are seeking is some kind of rational accommodation rather than simply retaining power.

[The following information was submitted:]


Cambodian Prime Minister Long Boret said today President Lon Nol and his government would do anything to bring peace to this war-torn country except resign.

The Prime Minister, speaking to newsmen mainly in French, said that, despite numerous assertions by communist-lead insurgents that they would not negotiate with the Lon Nol government, there would be no government resignation until negotiations began.

"We are willing to make any sacrifices so long as we are sure it will lead to peace," he said.

Mr. FOUNTAIN. Thank you, Mr. Habib.
Mr. HAMILTON. Mr. Gilman.


Mr. GILMAN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Ambassador, when our congressional delegation was in Southeast Asia recently they raised the issue once again of the MIA's. There are over 1,000 MIA's still listed. There are some journalists, there are over a dozen missionaries who have been captured and we have no information about them. Approximately a year ago some 80 files of our missing men were turned over by Secretary Kissinger to the Vietnamese, to Le Duc Thu, and a request was made for some information concerning those MIA's. Do you have any current information concerning our MIA's?

Mr. HABIB. No, sir, the North Vietnamese refuse to abide by the terms of the Paris agreement with regard to assisting and facilitating the U.S. search for information or remains of the Missing In Action. This has been one of the gross violations of the Paris agreement. It was the subject which the visiting delegation took up directly with the North Vietnamese representative in Saigon who was legally charged within the terms of the agreement, to assist in the process of determining just what is the status of our MIA's. And he, I must say, treated them in a very cavalier fashion which aroused, as you can imagine, bitter reaction on the part of our representatives.


Mr. GILMAN. What has the State Department done of recent date to pursue the request for information on these 80 MIA folders? I have been informed that in those 80 folders there was some information concerning the capture of these men and photographs and information indicating that they had been seen alive following their being taken prisoner.

Mr. HABIB. There are a number of people about whom we have some question. We can get no information whatsoever no matter how many times we ask. We have asked for a reconvening of the fourpower group in Saigon to consider these questions. The North Vietnamese and the Viet Cong refuse to have anything to do with the subject. They won't talk about it as the congressional delegation found out. You can ask them, you can demand and they don't give you an answer. They give you a political diatribe.


Mr. GILMAN. There is presently a proposal before the Congress to create a presidential task force on the MIA's. Would you care to comment on that proposal?

Mr. HABIB. I would think anything that focuses attention on this problem, on the uncertainty that so many families have been left in, anything that focuses attention on that problem and makes and gives any promise of progress, I would support. This is a subject I feel rather strongly about; it is something I had a lot to do with many years ago.

Mr. GILMAN. I appreciate your comment.

Mr. Ambassador, we are presently airlifting most of the food, I guess, and supplies into Cambodia. I understand that we are airlifting that supply and ammunition by way of Bird Aircraft. Is there some arrangement we have made, some legal arrangement with Bird Aircraft Co?


Mr. HABIB. Bird Aircraft is a contractor. If the committee wishes, we will provide the contract to the committee. We will provide the fulĺ contract to the committee so you can look at it yourself.

Mr. GILMAN. What does it cost?

Mr. HABIB. We have already provided that to the Committee on Foreign Relations in the Senate and we will certainly provide it to this committee.

Mr. GILMAN. What is the cost of the airlift?

Mr. HABIB. We introduced those figures just a moment ago on the military side. I also think we can introduce them on the economic side.

I will ask Mr. Zimmerly to respond.

Mr. ZIMMERLY. At the present rate of daily consumption, consumption being the airlifted amount that we move in, it is running about $5 to $6 million for a 30-day period. If we have to increase the daily airlift for food, the cost will go up a bit.

Mr. GILMAN. The $5 million is for Bird Aircraft Co.'s cost?

Mr. ZIMMERLY. No, sir, it is a combination of Bird Air and the airlift at the present time is Bird Air plus several other contracted commercial flights-World Airways, Airlift International, and Flying Tiger. There are two or three commercial airlines that operate the area that are providing aircraft in addition to Bird Air.

52-900-76- 4


Mr. GILMAN. What portion of the $200 million is applied to the cost of the airlift?

General FISH. The military side, sir, the Bird Aircraft contract for the fiscal year 1975 we estimate of $2.9 million. In addition, there is about $6.3 million of U.S. Air Force costs because the arrangements with Bird is that they fly U.S. Air Force aircraft that are furnished to them for this purpose. And then the commercial airlift of $1.3 million for a total of about $10.5 million for the year.

Mr. GILMAN. Thank you, General.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. HAMILTON. Mr. Bonker.


Mr. BONKER. Yes; Mr. Chairman. I would like to continue the questioning on the airlift.

In recent days there have been attacks on planes that have arrived in Phnom Penh. Are we taking any precautionary steps to protect those planes and U.S. personnel involved?

Mr. HABIB. Are we taking precautionary steps? No, that is a matter for the Cambodian forces to provide. They provide the security.

Mr. BONKER. Have they given you assurances that they are going to protect our aircraft?

Mr. HABIB. They do the best they can. What they have been doing is in the particular area where the 107-millimeter rockets have been coming from, at the airfield, they mounted a campaign to try to push the Khmer Rouge forces back in that area. They succeeded for a while. The aircraft were parked all the way over on what they call the military side of the field. That is where the Khmer Air Force also is, which happens to be on the side opposite to the direction from which the rockets come, so there had not been any rockets in that area. Mr. BONKER. Are there any Asian countries or governments involved in the airlift program that we use?

Mr. HABIB. No.

Mr. BONKER. So it is a U.S. exclusive?

Mr. HABIB. Yes.

Mr. BONKER. What about the liability on the planes?

Mr. HABIB. I suppose it is written into the contract. I am afraid I am not up to that.

General FISH. Well, for the commercial airlines, there is a provision of war risk insurance.

Mr. BONKER. Thank you. That is all.


Mr. HAMILTON. Mr. Secretary, I was interested in the final page of your statement this morning in which you talked about our commitment. You say this:

In entering into the Paris Agreement, we in effect told South Vietnam that we would no longer defend that country with U.S. forces, but that we would give it the means to defend itself. The South Vietnamese have carried on impressively,

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