Secretary WILSON. It certainly does, but my answer to it would not be to try to match the Russians by building the same number of submarines they do because that is not our problem.

Mr. CANNON. I am not asking about that.

AIRCRAFT PRODUCTION

Let us take then the Air Force. of the air the war would be lost? air.

You say if ever we lost control We must maintain control of the

What is the relative production of planes and what is the relative efficiency of the planes produced by Russia and produced by the United States a year?

Secretary WILSON. Would you mind repeating the question?

Mr. CANNON. What is the relative strength in numbers and efficiency of the planes produced by Russia in 1 year and the United States in the same year?

Secretary WILSON. We think our planes and our pilots and our whole technique are somewhat superior to theirs. We have more people in our Air Force than they do in theirs. It is difficult to make direct comparisons, because there are differences in the way our respective forces are organized. We have more people, as far as we know, engaged in the production of airplanes than they. We think with our atomic developments that we have an edge in the business. Mr. CANNON. We are talking now about numbers, Mr. Secretary. How many planes is Russia producing and how many are we producing?

Secretary WILSON. The way we planned this business is for the separate services to tell you men the figures and the facts and interpret them for you. If you just talk numbers and you do not go any deeper into it, you may have some misleading figures on your hands. Mr. CANNON. Let us start with numbers and we will go into the other later.

How many is Russia producing and how many is the United States producing?

Secretary WILSON. I did not come prepared with that detail. There are too many figures to try to pull them out of my head. I gave you what I thought was the important overall picture.

Mr. CANNON. You say Russia is producing 75 new submarines a year. How many planes are they producing a year?

Secretary WILSON. I would like to have the Air Force give you an estimate of that.

Mr. CANNON. Will you explain that in your testimony when your transcript comes to you? Tell us how many the Russians are producing and how many the United States will produce in the fiscal year for which this budget is requested?

Secretary WILSON. I think if I may say so, the best way to handle this and we are all prepared to spend plenty of time with your committee

Mr. CANNON. This will not take any time, Mr. Secretary. We will leave this right now and you supply the figures when the testimony comes to you.

Secretary WILSON. I will tell you why I am a little loath to do itbecause unfortunately our knowledge in absolute figures of what the

Russians are doing has to be explained along with the way we estimate the figures, and so forth. When I give you the figures of what we have, that is taken as correct, and certainly I would not ever want to go on the record with classified information of that sort.

Mr. CANNON. Mr. Secretary, I have never experienced such difficulty in getting information which should be at your fingertips as in this case.

The Secretary of Defense knows that. That is one of the figures that you have known in detail.

Is it not true that Russia is producing faster, vastly superior numbers than the numbers we are producing?

Secretary WILSON. You see, when you talk about numbers of airplanes

Mr. CANNON. Wait, Mr. Secretary.

Secretary WILSON. Are you talking about bombers now?

Mr. CANNON. It seems to be absolutely impossible to get any information out of you. You are up here to give us some information. You are asking for the largest sum of money ever asked, and you are not telling us what the reason is why we should spend it, and how many they are producing and how many we are producing.

Secretary WILSON. Mr. Congressman, I do not mean to be devious with you. If I were the only witness before this committee I would have come

Mr. CANNON. Mr. Secretary, that has nothing to do with it. How many are the Russians producing now? How many are we producing, and is it not true that Russia is outproducing us at a tremendous rate?

Secretary WILSON. I do not think so, sir.

Mr. CANNON. We have heard statements to the contrary repeatedly, and statements have been carried in the press and magazines.

QUALITY OF RUSSIAN AIRCRAFT

Now, as to the efficiency, is it not true that Russia had the jet plane in service before we got the jet plane in service?

Secretary WILSON. When you talk about the jet planes in service, do you mean the Migs, or are you talking about bombers?

Mr. CANNON. The jet planes. That is a term everybody understands. We have been told that the Russians were producing efficient jet planes before we were; that we could get the planes up in the air and could not get them down at a time the Russians were producing them in volume; is that true?

Secretary WILSON. No.

Mr. CANNON. They did not get the first jet planes into service then. You got the first jet planes into service, would you say?

Secretary WILSON. We had a jet plane before the Russians. The British really made the first ones and the first planes that the Russians made were Migs. They have been struggling to catch up with us.

Mr. CANNON. It is impossible to get you to answer my questions. I am asking you, did the Russian Air Force have jet planes in service before the United States had jet planes in service, or did the United States have jet planes in service first?

sir.

Secretary WILSON. I would say that we had them in service first,

Mr. CANNON. That is contrary to the information we have.

Secretary WILSON. You go back before my time. I used to help make engines for them.

B-52 PROGRESS

Mr. CANNON. Mr. Secretary, what progress are you making in producing our B-52's?

Secretary WILSON. Very good progress.

Mr. CANNON. Are they being produced in volume?
Secretary WILSON. Yes.

Mr. CANNON. How many are we producing?

Secretary WILSON. It is on a build-up schedule. It is a very good development with a minimum of trouble in it. I am told it is one of the very best planes we have ever produced, which is quite fortunate. The stepped-up schedules were put into effect a year ago. We asked your committee for some additional money, and we also stepped up the production rates. The plane was in a condition of mechanical perfection about then so that we could do it.

Our B-47 production in the last 3 years has been very good. It has come along and we got the bugs out of them. That is a very powerful force in the world today, our force of B-47's.

REDUCTION IN REQUEST FOR NEW PLANES

Mr. CANNON. Mr. Secretary, in view of the fact that you say the next war will be won or lost in the air, why did you reduce the amount requested for these planes?

Secretary WILSON. For what planes now? You ask me the question and I will answer it.

Mr. CANNON. For airpower.

Secretary WILSON. We did not reduce the money for any essential planes we thought were the kind we needed.

Mr. CANNON. But you did reduce the money requested for airpower.

Secretary WILSON. By whom?

Mr. CANNON. Why was that done when you say the success of the next war depends upon maintaining airpower, air superiority?

Secretary WILSON. The buildup of our new planes is going along on a very good basis, and when you say we reduced the amount requested, we did no more than we ordinarily have done for years in the Department of Defense.

There are customary procedures that have been followed, starting with the different services bringing in their initial budget requests. They are gone over very carefully, so when we come over here and ask for all this money we can assure you gentlemen that it is going to be spent for the right purpose and that the budget request is not padded with a lot of extra stuff. The services used to have trouble getting money out of the Congress; they were inclined to overstate their estimates, so they got chopped down in the past

Mr. CANNON. Mr. Secretary

Secretary WILSON. But what you are talking about now must be based on some rumors you have heard some place or the other.

If you want me to supply this committee with the initial request of the services for money and what we finally wound up with in our budget request, we will be glad to do it, if you want us to do that. I assure you it is the same procedure that has been followed for years. (The information appears on page 50.)

COMPARISON OF AIRCRAFT PRODUCTION

Mr. CANNON. Mr. Secretary, in view of the fact that you say that airpower is vital, and in view of the fact that Russian is outproducing

us

Secretary WILSON. I did not say Russia was outproducing us.

Mr. CANNON. Would you say now that we are outproducing Russia in planes today? Is the United States outproducing Russia in planes today? That is a very vital point and we want to have an authoritative statement on it. Is the United States outproducing Russia in airpower today?

Secretary WILSON. I will ask the Air Force to tell you.

Mr. CANNON. No, no, no; you tell me. You are the Secretary and you know. Do not take refuge behind anybody. Tell us, is the United States outproducing Russia in airplanes or airpower today? Secretary WILSON. When you ask me

Mr. CANNON. No, no, no; just answer the question-Is the United States outproducing Russia in airpower today?

Secretary WILSON. You have to tell me

Mr. CANNON. See, you will not answer the question. Say yes or no. Secretary WILSON. I cannot answer it.

Mr. CANNON. You could if you would, Mr. Secretary. You are the Secretary of Defense and you know.

Secretary WILSON. Mr. Congressman, where do you think I get such absolute information out of Russia, from behind the Iron Curtain? How do you think I get that?

REDUCTION OF AIR FORCE REQUEST

Mr. CANNON. Well, I see that you will not answer the question. Let me ask you this: If Russia should attack us, and evidently that is a possibility or you would not be asking for all this money here, you tell us that the only enemy we have in the world from whom we might expect an attack is Russia and then you ask us for more money than you have ever asked before.

In view of that fact, why do you propose less money for airpower? Secretary WILSON. I have not proposed less money for airpower. Mr. CANNON. Yes, you have reduced the amount requested for airpower.

Secretary WILSON. I do not think that is a fair statement at all. The whole shift of our military strategy has been to emphasize the airpower and new weapons and decrease emphasis on conventional forces and conventional weapons.

Of the increase that we have requested a very large part of that goes to the Air Force, and the Air Force program, I assure you, is a good sound program. I regret that I have not the whole dope here to give you today.

Mr. CANNON. You can supply it when your testimony comes to you.

METHOD OF RUSSIAN ATTACK

Let me ask you this question, If Russia attacks us, and that is the only reason why we are providing this money, how will she attack? With what forces and from what direction?

Secretary WILSON. Actually, there is no way of knowing exactly what Russia will do; how she will attack.

Mr. CANNON. That is begging the question, Mr. Secretary.

Secretary WILSON. They might launch simultaneous attacks on the continent of the United States with airpower and a coordinated attack in Europe with a combination of air and ground forces. At the same time, they might attempt to use submarines.

This is a very serious matter, of course. I know the military people are trying to analyze it the best they can and work at it all the time. Mr. CANNON. Well, Mr. Secretary, in the First World War and the Second World War we had a breathing spell after war was declared.. England and France held the enemy off until we could start production and could begin fighting.

Among the many other things to which you referred, we no longer have any ally on the other side that will bear the brunt of the fight until we get ready. Unless we are ready when the war starts we will never be ready because the enemy will then attack us direct. The enemy will not bother with England and France, it will come right straight at us because they realize if they defeat us that is the end of the world and they will control the world. So they will attack us direct.

Now, let me ask you this question: They could-and up to this time we have considered this the most feasible-come across the North Pole, or, as it has been suggested lately, they could from submarines. on the Atlantic or Pacific coast launch atomic bombs, or they could, as has been suggested, smuggle into the United States, -in various guises, disguised bombs and locate them at strategic positions before they came over.

Are all three methods feasible, Mr. Secretary?

Secretary WILSON. Not very.

Mr. CANNON. I beg your pardon?

Secretary WILSON. Not very.

Mr. CANNON. Which is the most feasible and which is the least feasible?

Secretary WILSON. Obviously, they could operate their submarines for a while until we could destroy them. They could fly some of their bombers in various ways to this country and they would be subject to various kinds of detection, interception, and destruction. If they wanted to attack us those are two ways they could do it.

Some people think they might be able to smuggle some stuff in. Of course, that is a possibility, but the chance of detection, I think, would be too great; that is, bringing a big atomic bomb in in pieces and finally assembling it somewhere and getting it mechanically perfect so it would be useful and not be risking detection. While it is Something that we should keep looking at all the time, I think that is the least likely way of doing it. To get any such weapons where they would be of greatest military value, like trying to destroy our SAC bases, would be still more difficult. I just do not see how they would do that. So I write that down as something to think about,