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Mr. HARE. You have an estimate of $42,800,000.

Miss LENROOT. That is the amount appropriated for this year we are asking for $44,189,500 for 1946.

Mr. HARE. Now, what amount of your estimate for this year ha been

Miss LENROOT. Expended or allocated?

Mr. HARE. Yes.

Miss LENROOT. We have tables here showing that. The February figures were obtained after we prepared the material submitted to you, so that this is a new table.

Mr. HARE. Well, could you tell us offhand?

Miss LENROOT. This table shows that to date we have expended a total of $29,776,764, of which $29,320,730 is for actual payment of care and $456,034 is for State administration under the 2% percent allowed for this purpose, leaving a balance of $13,023,236 for 4 months Mr. HARE. I believe you stated yesterday you had, up to the present, 720,000 cases approved.

Miss LENROOT. That is right, that is since the beginning of the program.

Mr. HARE. Since the beginning of the program?

Miss LENROOT. Yes; it is 408,000, I think, in the fiscal year.

Mrs. WARREN. We had in the fiscal year 1944, 384,071 cases authorized. To date 320,169 cases have been authorized for the 8 months of the current fiscal year, July through February.

Mr. HARE. And you estimate that you will have how many more? Dr. ELIOT. Approximately 150,000 more this year, making up the total estimate for this year of 470,169.

Mr. HARE. Cases?

Dr. ELIOT. Cases. That is our current estimate.

Mr. HARE. That compares with the fiscal year 1944?

Dr. ELIOT. With 384,071, and it comes very close to our estimate

for this year which was 487,000.

Mr. HARE. Are there any questions on this point?

Mr. TARVER. I would like to ask a question, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. HARE. Very well.

RELATION OF ESTIMATES TO THE CONTINUATION OF THE WAR ON THE

PRESENT BASIS

Mr. TARVER. Your estimate for the next fiscal year in this program assumes that the war will continue during the next fiscal year, and I assume that you have submitted your estimate on the threefold basis which the Secretary discussed when she was with us yesterday? Miss LENROOT. That is right.

Mr. TARVER. The estimate which has been approved is the one which you submitted upon the basis of the probable continuance of a two-front war during the next fiscal year?

Miss LENROOT. It is substantially what we submitted on the basis of a two-front war; that is correct.

Mr. TARVER. Then, of course, you cannot anticipate how much reduction the military and naval forces might incur if the war should end in Europe prior to July 1, but if there should be a reduction in naval and military personnel occasioned by the ending of the war in Europe before the next fiscal year, your needs for this program would be materially reduced, would they not?

Miss LENROOT. At the time we submitted the material to the Budget on the threefold basis, to which you referred, our estimate on the basis of termination of the war in Europe but continuation of the Pacific war was $40,000,000. Now, we might have to make certain adjustments if we were to estimate on that basis now because Dr. Eliot has certain additional material from the War and Navy Departments, but I think the total reduction in the program would be somewhere in the neighborhood of perhaps two or three million dollars should the war terminate on one front.

CHILD-LABOR VIOLATIONS

(See p. 334)

Mr. TARVER. Miss Lenroot, I am sorry I did not have the opportunity to question you at the time that you were examined concerning your child-labor program; that is the enforcement of the provisions of the Fair Labor Standards Act, which is entrusted for administration to your Bureau, relating to child labor.

I believe the Secretary stated yesterday that there have been some 8,000 of such cases during the last year, of alleged child-labor violations; is that right?

Miss MCCONNELL. Something over 8,000.

Mr. TARVER. Will you insert into the record the distribution of those cases by States?

Miss LENROOT. I will be glad to.

(The information requested is as follows:)

Establishments in violation and minors employed contrary to the child-labor provisions of the Fair Labor Standards Act, by State, fiscal year 1944

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Mr. TARVER. What were the ages of the average children found employed in violation of the law?

Miss LENROOT. I think we have an age break-down here.

These figures relate to the fiscal year 1944, ending June 30, 1944. There were 8,436 minors found illegally employed, of whom 482 were under 14. The remainder were 14 and 15, or in some cases 16 and 17, in violation of the hazardous occupation orders.

Do you have that break-down, Miss McConnell?

Miss MCCONNELL. I do not understand just what break-down you mean, Miss Lenroot.

Miss LENROOT. I want the 14 and the 15 years of age. This only gives the under 14.

Miss MCCONNELL. We do not have that information. It is not available. The material is kept only in the 14- and 15-year group, but we can supply figures by year of age for those under 14.

Miss LENROOT. I see. The great majority would be 14 and 15 years of age.

Mr. TARVER. You cannot supply the information as to the other age bracket for the record?

Miss LENROOT. We know 482 were under 14, and of those 116 were under 12. The remainder were 14 and over, but we do not have a break-down of those 14 and over.

Miss MCCONNELL. We do not have a break-down of what proportion were 14 and what 15, but we know the number of children in the age group 14 and 15 and 16 and 17.

Mr. TARVER. Do you have those 16 and 17?

Miss McCONNELL. Yes.

Mr. TARVER. Can you show what industries they were employed in?

Miss MCCONNELL. Yes.

Mr. TARVER. What particular type of industry was the worst offender?

Miss McCONNELL. Well, I am not sure you could name any one industry, except that the food industry was one of the industries in which the largest proportion of younger children were found employed. Other than that the violations were widely distributed. Violations were found in practically every industry.

(The information requested is as follows:)

Number of minors employed contrary to the child-labor provisions of the Fair Labor Standards Act, by age and by industry, fiscal year 1944

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Number of minors employed contrary to the child-labor provisions of the Fair Labor Standards Act, by age and by industry, fiscal year 1944-Continued

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Mr. TARVER. Now, in relation to the food industry, do you have reference to the employment of children to gather foodstuff?

Miss MCCONNELL. No, sir; that is in the factories where food is processed. But that has no reference to the agricultural work. Mr. KEEFE. Canning factories?

Miss MCCONNELL. The canning factories or other food-processing establishments.

Mr. TARVER. Do you mean canning factories on the farm maintained by the farmers themselves for processing their own products, in any case?

Miss MCCONNELL. It would depend on the situation, Judge Tarver. If the farmer was conducting, in his own home, for example, canning operations, it would not be subject to the act.

Mr. TARVER. But suppose it was a canning plant that he had on his farm and he employed his children and his tenants' children in that canning plant; would you consider that violation of the law?

Miss MCCONNELL. Well, it is difficult for me to say "yes" or "no" to that because whether such an establishment was subject to the act would depend on a number of factors. If he employed other people than his own children and he operated a business enterprise in which he was producing goods which were shipped in interstate commerce, then I think the answer would be that he was subject to the act and therefore would be subject to the child-labor provisions.

Mr. TARVER. In other words, if the farmer employed his own children and in addition employed the children of the tenants on his farm, he would, in your opinion, be subject to the provisions of the act? Miss LENROOT. If shipping goods in interstate commerce.

Miss MCCONNELL. If producing goods for shipment in interstate commerce, I believe that might be true.

Mr. TARVER. Of course, his goods might go into interstate commerce. In other words, you construe the act so that a farmer with a lot of tomatoes, let us say, to can on his farm, cannot employ his own children and his tenant's children of 14 or 15 years of age in canning those tomatoes if they are going in interstate commerce? Miss MCCONNELL. I do not believe we have ever had a situation, Judge Tarver, where there has been an establishment

Mr. TARVER. Will you read that question?

(Question read.)

Mr. TARVER. Will you answer that question, please?

Miss MCCONNELL. It is my understanding, Judge Tarver, that such an establishment would be subject to the child-labor provisions of the act. However, if a cannery operated by a farmer processes only products grown on his own farm and the canning operations are incidental to the farming operations, the cannery would not be subject to the child-labor provisions of the act except as section 13 (c) would apply the 16-year minimum age during a period when children are required by the State law to attend school.

Mr. TARVER. Then your answer is "Yes"?

Miss MCCONNELL. Yes, sir.

Mr. TARVER. In other words, "Yes" would do just as well and save a lot of time and space.

Now, do you not think that in view of the food situation and the difficulty that our farmers are having in getting labor, that this law, as construed by you, inflicts quite a hardship on many types of farmers?

Miss MCCONNELL. Well, Judge Tarber, we have no authority to change any statutory provision of the act and if the act establishes a minimum age for employment in an establishment, which is defined in the act as coming under it, we do not have any matter of judgment. Mr. TARVER. I do not believe I asked if you had any power of judgment or discretion. I asked if you did not think that, under present conditions, it imposed quite a hardship on farmers. Miss MCCONNELL. I do not believe so.

Mr. TARVER. You do not think so. Now, have you prosecuted any of these farmers for employing their children and their tenant's children in establishments of that type?

Miss MCCONNELL. I do not think so, Judge Tarber.

Mr. TARVER. Will you examine the records of your prosecutions or convictions and see whether that is true or not?

Miss MCCONNELL. I shall be glad to.

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